kipwinger

AA is asking for 2.5 million per year. Hardly "big money". Also Sam Bennett, your "comparable", scored fewer points last season than AA, despite playing a minute more per game, and playing 17 more games. So yeah, he SHOULD accept 1.9...he's not as good as AA is.

In every other contract negotiation I've ever seen, you pay more for a shorter term, and less for a longer one. Isn't that how we kept Abby's cap hit down, and why Green's is probably higher than he's worth. I think AA is worth 2.5 million over 3 years. A little less for more term, and little more for less term. I certainly think he's worth more than the comparables people have been throwing around considering all the guys mentioned as comparables (Brown, Anderson, Baertschi, Bennett) score roughly the same number of points with more TOI, more games, or both.

Except you're not posting with any kind of logical or intellectual rigor. You're the king of the strawman. See the bolded above. Never said any of that. That's you just being argumentative. I said that AA is worth more than 1.9 million per year. And that Holland should offer him the 2.5 million he's asking. I never, ever, said offering him a lower AAV was "fine". I said that Holland should counter with a longer term, since it's a negotiation, but that he should absolutely offer the 2.5 because AA is worth that to this team. You've somehow morphed that into "Kip wants him signed no matter what even if that means lowballing him", which is pretty far from the truth. And you do this stuff all the time. If you were being "rational" you'd discuss hockey with people rather than trying to win debate points by distorting what other people say. If you want to scrutinize my posts, have at it. But you tend to scrutinize arguments you've made up. And then you run with it. Not really all that different that what millions of other commenters do when they try to "win" the internet. And then hide behind, "I'm just being rational". You're not. Your schtick is pretty obvious. Here, I'll clarify. I think 2.5 million over three years is a fair deal. To get there Holland will have to accept 2.5 million (which is fair) and counter offer with 4 years. Considering this is too long a term, we might reasonable expect AA's camp to counter with 3 years at 2.5 million. And then we'd have a fair deal. All clear? Since this falls within your parameter of a "fair deal" you shouldn't have anything to argue about right?

How's it disingenuous? You're super eager to paint me as a "Holland is a bad guy" slappy when that's never been the case. As I've already said, AA's agent has repeatedly said that the salary is the sticking point. He's never mentioned the term. Holland won't budge on the salary, and so I said he was lowballing him (because I agree that AA should get 2.5 million...over 3 years, which I said elsewhere). I wouldn't fault Holland a bit for offering 2.5 over 3, or 4, or whatever. Because I think the value would be right. I only said Holland was lowballing him because he won't move off 1.9 million. What's your deal man? You're always playing this "gotcha" game around here as if you're exposing some nefarious doubletalk from everyone else. I'd suggest you read back over all my posts and see if it's not abundantly clear that I have issue with the aav, and not the term, before making more of your "comments section" accusations toward me. Also, lighten up. Roughly 100% of your posts are aimed at finding some perceived ***** in the other members' posts and then attacking them. Why don't you talk about hockey once in a while? I mean, what do you think is a fair contract for AA? 2.5 million for 3 years? Yeah, me too. He's already proved he's worth more than 1.9 million over two years. All of the comparable guys people keep mentioning, including Brown, Anderson, Baertschi, scored roughly as much as AA with more minutes, more games, or both. It's not unreasonable to think he's worth slightly more than those guys.

Done. Check your messages for confirmation.

Not at all. It's Ken Holland's job to get AA signed to as team friendly a deal as possible. It's AA's agent's job to get the player the best deal possible. To date, the agent has been more concerned with the salary than the term. Seems fair that if Holland caved on the salary he could counter offer with a longer term and both get what they want. That is, if the salary is the actual sticking point like the agent has suggested. I think 2.5 is fair for AA. But given that it's a negotiation why wouldn't I, if I were Holland, try to get another year or two out of him? Edit: Holland's initial offer was 1.25 million for 1 year, and then bumped it to 1.9 for 2 years. Just for context's sake.

Name your charity. I'll make good on it. Though I'm standing by my original statement, "comparables" mean dick in terms of setting a player's value. If that were a primary factor in setting value Sidney Crosby would be the highest paid player in the league. Yet worse players make more money because of economics.

That's precisely my point. If he's hung up on the AAV, and wants more, then make him pay for it by signing for additional years. If he rejects the offer then it's clear that the AAV isn't the problem, which is what his agent has said was the sticking point.

He's not "making demands". He's choosing not to play for less money than he believes he's worth it. Something which is entirely allowed by the collective bargaining agreement. He's not REQUIRED to play in the NHL nor for the Red Wings. And it's not like he's under contract and is just refusing to report to the team. For comparison's sake, Jacob Trouba and Jonathan Drouin "demanded" trades. AA did not.

If I were Holland I would offer him 4 years at 2.5 million. Would put AA in a tough spot. If he turns it down, it looks like he's being greedy, and if he accepts he'll likely out perform his contract in 3 of the 4 years.

I'm not suggesting that Holland hand the kid a blank check or anything. But we're talking about 500K here. 500k for a kid who was your second leading goal scorer, a fan favorite (at least up until this), and who is young enough to be a key part of your rebuild. I'm not sure what IS worth 500k at this point in the Wings' developmental arch if that isn't. I mean jeez, if Xavier Ouellet is worth 1.3 million then AA is worth 2.3-2.5 easily.

No such clause exists in his either. He's not under contract. He's absolutely allowed to go play in another league. Literally NOTHING prohibits him from that. So again, would you take less money than you think you're worth just because your boss says you should? Or would you go get another job where you get paid accordingly?

You saying the offer is market value doesn't make it so. Market value is determined by supply and demand, not "player comparables". I will donate $50 dollars to a charity of your choice if you can find a single Ken Holland reference to "comparables" prior to this year. It's a negotiating tactic. AA supplies goals. Ken Holland needs goals. Hence, Holland has to move toward the upper end of the price range. So far he's failed to do so, and has alienated a good young talent in the process. Saying that Holland should offer his young talent what some other GM, who's team is at a totally different point in their lifecycle is offering his, is way off base IMO. If Holland doesn't want to pay AA 500K more, trade him and be done with it.

If your boss offered you a salary, and you thought you were worth more than he offered, would it be your responsibility to take less to prove your worth? AA obviously feels he's worth more than 1.9 million. Why should he take less? You think he's dying to get back on the ice for a coach who doesn't use him much and a team that's going nowhere? Might as well just trade him at this point.

IMO the best thing that could happen is for Frk to get some time because of the AA situation and the Bertuzzi injury. If he can rack up a reasonably impressive number of goals, particularly because of the officiating changes this season, then we can flip him for a pick at the deadline. This season is tailor made for his success and we shouldn't squander that. Best case scenario Frk becomes a valuable asset for relatively little cost.

If we had the #2, and Dahlin went first overall, I'd trade back and try to pick up a late round pick. Supposedly it's a deep defensive draft, so draft a center early and try to get a quality defender later. Of course, it's really too early to tell how I'd rank these kids on draft day but right now I'd target Valeno early in the round and a defenseman later.

Straw man. I've never said Holland was an idiot, nor anything like it. I said he was lowballing AA to bail himself out of the cap trouble that he put himself in, but that's about it. If you want to respond to the people who call Holland an idiot, do so. But you responded to me, and are now insinuating that I'm in that same camp because I think Holland should sign the kid to a contract that you seem alright with. Your criticism of the "Holland sucks" crowd is appropriate, but it's got nothing to do with me. My only argument has been that maybe in a team as bad offensively as ours is, our GM should probably think about offering one of his better goal scorers more than he's paying Luke Glendening. And if you don't think this has anything to do with the cap, I'd point to the relative ease with which Holland signed any number of unproven or unproductive players when he had the money to do so. I notice he never held Glendening, or Helm, or Abby, or Sheahan, or Ericsson over the coals for a couple hundred thousand dollars, but suddenly he draws a hard line on AA. Hmmm...I wonder what changed?

As far as Frk goes, it looks like with Bertuzzi out he'll get a shot at a roster spot. With AA not signed he may well get powerplay time (given that AA was a feature of the PP that ended last season). That's his opportunity, and he will probably only get it this one time. If he shows up like he did tonight, I'd expect the Wings to send Bertuzzi down after he's healthy. If not, then Frk correctly goes back down to GR. Either way, I don't see anything wrong with giving him a shot right now.

I'm not really sure why you're playing devil's advocate here. All the way back on page 11 you agreed with me when I said AA should make between 2.5-3 million per year. Now suddenly you think 1.9 is good value. Seems like you're just being contrary. If Holland had offered the money that both you (as of a week ago) and I think is "fair" AA would be signed right now.

The "comparable players" argument isn't a good one, for a couple of reasons. First, there aren't many comparable players to AA. His goals/60 is INSANE. He's a complete outlier. Secondly, a 20 goals scorer (for example) on a team full of 20 goal scorers has less value than a 20 goal scorer on a team that doesn't have any. We need AA's offense more than the Penguins (for example) probably would. As a result we'll have to pay more. Ken Holland is trying this tactic and it seems to be sticking, but at the end of the day it's all about supply and demand. AA can supply goals in a league where that's important. The Wings NEED goals pretty badly, enough that they probably should just give the guy the 2.5 million he's asking for. As for Sheahan, I'm not sure why trading him is such an issue. Any or all of Neilsen, Larkin, or Helm can be our 3rd line center, and Sheahan hasn't even been playing center consistently. So you can add a bunch of wingers as well. He's totally replaceable. AA, on the other hand, really isn't on our offensively inept team.

Paying a guy what he's worth isn't "overpaying". This drives me crazy. Regardless of whether he's an RFA, he's worth the money. Ken Holland is lowballing this kid because he's put himself into a bad cap situation. I understand that Holland CAN offer a guy less than he's worth if the player is an RFA, but that doesn't mean he should. If he's made a competitive offer, as opposed to an insulting one, AA would be on the team right now. Also, Anybody who thinks that the Red Wings "can't" match an offer sheet is nuts. The minute AA signed an offer sheet the Wings would match and then trade Sheahan (as is being rumored). We're talking about 600k here. The league is doing Holland a favor here because now he can keep an asset he clearly doesn't want to trade AND he gets to lowball a kid on an RFA offer. But don't let that fool you into thinking he "can't" match an offer sheet. He can, pretty easily.

I like Valeno so far. And Dahlin, obviously. I don't want/care about Svechnikov. We don't need another winger, and I'm not convinced that a stud winger, without a quality center, can be a difference maker when it comes to the Cup. There are tons of super high end wingers who will never realistically compete for the Cup because they don't have top flight centers and defensemen on their teams. Hell, Ovechkin is one of the best wingers of all time, AND he's got a better center and #1 defenseman than we've got, and still there is no Cup in Washington. You could put 2 or 3 Andrei Svechnikov's on Detroit's team and they wouldn't win without a top center and top defenseman. And since you can't really trade for either one, you've got to draft them. So why would you draft anything other than a center or defenseman if you were Detroit?

It's insane to me that there are people who are angry with AA for holding out here. He's worth more than 1.9 million per year, and that's all our organization is willing to offer him. Every other team in the league would offer him 2.25-3.0 million. We can't, or won't, because our GM handed out terrible contracts to other players. It's not AA's job to take less than he's worth to bail out Ken Holland. It blows my mind that a guy with his offensive talent is being offered Luke Glendening money, and people are acting like AA is a prima donna for not accepting it. There is not excuse what so ever for the organization to be hard balling this kid right now. They've all but ensured he's going to walk as a free agent now.

I don't care where we draft. If we don't take a center with #1 upside, or a defenseman with the same, then we're not one iota better. Those have been our two most glaring issues for about 10 drafts now, and remain that way still.

So Holland's whole rationale for not paying AA is that he'd then have to pay Mantha and Larkin more than the standard "bridge" deals as well. He seems to be pretty dated in how he handles salary negotiations. Many organizations are foregoing the "bridge" deal and locking young talent up to longer term contracts these days. For example, Columbus game Alexander Wennberg 4.9 million over six years coming off his entry level contract. Likewise, Nashville have Viktor Arvidsson 4.25 million over 7 years. Both were coming off their entry level contracts and were RFAs. Considering both of these guys are better than AA, I'd say 2.5-3 million would be good for him, but over a long term