kipwinger

Crosby isn't on a downward trend. Any more than Ovechkin was on a downward trend a couple years ago when his points dipped. Crosby is the very best player in the world. As much as I love Ovie, and I do, he's not better than Crosby. Nobody is.

Sure. I don't disagree. But I'm just interested in your priorities. We're having a discussion about roster moves that would improve the team's dismal start to the season, and you've recommended two guys who you readily admit won't make the team a bit better. But will make them more entertaining when they lose. Which is fine. Your opinion after all. I've actually always believed that you'd rather lose with enforcers than win with euros. This just sort of confirms it.

So, just to be clear, you don't think he'd improve the team but you do think he'd make losing more entertaining?

You don't honestly think Mike McKee would make our team better do you? I mean, no b.s., you REALLY think that?

We throw the puck away CONSTANTLY.

I hate Pulkkinen and Tatar together! Kindl and Jurco look good tonight though.

I missed the first. How did we look?

Kind of a bad example. That line was the Red Wings 3rd line. The first two were full of Hall of Famers. If you were arguing that Tatar-Larkin-Pulkkinen should be our third line, behind guys like Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanahan, Robitaille, and Larionov, most people wouldn't have a problem with it. Especially if one of these guys (Pulkkinen in this case) was actually Brett Hull. Most of the time, in modern hockey, it's beneficial to have a "digger" on a line with skill guys because he bring an element of puck retrieval to the line that benefits the skill guys. But you're right. In the rare circumstances in which you can put two budding superstars, and one of the greastest players in the history of the game, out against 3rd line competition you can get away with not having a "digger".

I don't think Lando "blows". I don't think he's a superstar either, but at least he can skate. Andersson is sloooooooow. It's hard to watch sometimes.

His type of game (so far) is also more suited for 2nd line digger too. That's the Catch-22 of it all. We can't afford to keep Jurco in the lineup if he's not doing anything. Especially given that Datsyuk and Tatar both had really solid years last season with Helm on their wing. We both agree that we need another digger in the top six. I'm all for Jurco having it IF he proves he can do something with the spot. Otherwise he's not more suited for that role than he is for a fourth line role. It's really up to him. He'll get the chance (just like he did when Franzen got hurt) but he's got to do something with it. We need Tatar and Datsyuk (or whomever the center is) producing. They can do that with Helm. So it's hard to justify keeping him on the fourth in favor of Jurco if the latter isn't producing.

I'm not opposed to it is guess. Everybody knows I don't like having centers as wingers, but it's going to happen one way or another if Larkin is in the lineup, so I'm fine with it in theory. As far as the rest of your lineup, that depends on whether Jurco can get it going or not. If he can pick it up then I don't have a problem with him playing with Dats and Tatar. But if not, then default back to Helm. Helm isn't huge, but he's proven more than capable of being a digger for Dats and Tatar. Something that Jurco hasn't done consistently (yet), and that guys like Larkin and Pulkkinen are ill suited for.

I'm not in love with Ferraro, but he's a fourth line winger, he doesn't matter. As far as your other lines, I think the 2nd is still too weak. Darren Helm (or Luke Glendening) will win 99% of puck battles against Dylan Larkin. The kid is fast and skilled, but he's not strong. He's not doing to dig puck out. So why put him and Tatar on the same line when we already know the Tatar-Datsyuk-Helm line works? You're convinced Larkin is an upgrade, but I'm not so sure.

Barring any roster changes I'd go with the following (when all are healthy). I don't like keeping Pulk out given that he's scoring, but he's not better than any of the three skill guys, and scratching Jurco for him means you have to put two little guys together no matter what you do: Tatar-Dats-Helm (It worked last year) Larkin-Z-Abby (It's working this year) Nyquist-Sheahan-Jurco (2 out of 3 ain't bad?) Miller-Glendening-Ferraro Larkin isn't an upgrade in Helm's role. He's a better player no doubt, but that's like saying that Jason Pominville is an upgrade over Abby because he scores more points. Not really when you consider the role.

If Larkin is in the top six as a winger, then the other line will probably have Nyquist and Tatar together. That combo has completely sucked to this point. I don't mind having Larkin in the top six as a winger, but that means that one of Tatar or Nyquist gets bumped to the third, and Pulkkinen gets to sit down. 5 of the 6 wingers in our top 9 can't be skill guys under 200 lbs. It's just not going to work.

I'm sick of two skilled wingers playing on the same lines. No wonder we lose puck battles when Tatar is the "gritty one" on his line. I don't want any of Larkin, Nyquist, Tatar, or Pulkkinen playing on the same line at the same time. Sure they've got skill to burn, and will score the occasional pretty goal (Pulkkinen's breakaway), but they'll consistently lose the possession game. Which is clearly a problem right now.

Even Dave Lewis wasn't as bad as the "Dave Lewis" of lore. So I'm not sure how Jeff Blashill could be.

Careful, by that rationale Daniel Alfredsson wouldn't be a good captain because all he had was stats and no Cup.

Right, but Athanasiou isn't just some scrub center. He's a future top guy. You don't screw with his development like that. I agree that he can be an effective fourth line winger now. Or he can be an effective second line center in a year or two. But probably not both. Name a single other quality top center who started out on their teams' fourth line? None. So there's probably something to it.

Holy, hell. I pretty much hate all these pairings and all these lines. Should be an interesting game tonight.

If we had an injury at 3rd line center, and needed a replacement, I'd be beating the drum for the kid. But not as a top six complimentary winger. He's REALLYgood. But I've never been a believer that any player is just as suitable for a role as any other player. I'm a firm believer, however, in specialization. If your centers are bad, bring in better centers (Athanasiou). If your wingers are bad, find better wingers.

I've watched him a lot. And it pains me to have these discussions with you because it always seems like I'm anti-Athanasiou. Which couldn't be further from the truth. Prior to this season I actually had him higher than Larkin in my evaluation of the prospects (clearly I was wrong lol). I really, really, like AA's game. But as I've said, I think that kid has top six center potential. And I want to see the team be very careful in developing him toward that goal. I don't want to see his development derailed by putting him in a position he has no long term future playing. He needs to be "the guy" on a team, an everyday scoring threat. Not a complementary player. If we need a banger, crasher, type, we can get one. I'd look to teams that started badly and see what's to be had. We've got tradeable assets, valuable ones. Lets see what we can do with them. I'd be looking to exploit Columbus right now if I were Ken Holland. Boone Jenner is the kind of guy that would help us, and I'm sure they'd be amenable to the right offer given their defensive needs.

I didn't say fast. I said big. A digger. Nyquist is fast. Tatar is fast. Larkin is fast. But when you put two of those guys together you have a line that can't win puck battles or play on the inside. I'm talking about a Justin Abdelkader, Troy Brouwer, Drew Stafford type of guy. Not exactly slow, but their value isn't in being fast, it's in being big(ish) and tough.

I actually agree with a few others that we need one more big bodied, digger. Either that or we need Jurco to step up in a hurry. I've said before that I don't like any line that has two of Tatar, Nyquist, or Pulkkinen on it. You can now add Larkin to that mix as well. I just don't like two small wingers. I don't think we need some superstar power foward or anything. But with Franzen hurt, and Jurco still struggling, we need another Abby for the second line.

Nothing. By then Larkin will be a number 1 center, and we'll have Sheahan, AA, and Zetterberg still on the roster. Pavel is an amazing player, but losing him isn't the same as losing Lidstrom. We'll be fine.

Sweat all season long if you want. 76 games is a long time. I'm not ready to throw my hands up in exasperation after 6 games. Particularly when we've been here before, and we've got a better team now. We'll be fine.