kipwinger

Michael Del Zotto harasses entire Las Vegas fan base on twitter.

What do you mean "TOO MANY HOOKERS"?

Hey look, a pony!

Discourse shmishcourse. I ain't come here to join a debate team. I came here to talk hockey. Don't need a Ph.D. in Rhetoric from Carnegie Mellon to do that. Just need a coupla cold Labatt Blues, the ol' eyeball test, and some homespun cliches. Just as Don Cherry intended.

So, if you could only draft one (Goose vs. Mexican Water Bug), which would you choose? I'd go outside the box and pick a Mule. Better than bugs and/or water fowl.

For me it depends on the writer. J.J. is good. Kyle, on the other hand, is snarky and cynical. I can't stand his pieces. He's a archetype of those obnoxious Red Wings fans who are simultaneously elitists, homers, and victims, all at the same time.

Because what's true in the case of any two players must be true in the case of EVERY two players? Realgud thinking.

I genuinely thought this already happened. Why didn't this happen already Ryane?

I disagree. A LOT of folks (fans, media, management, etc.) were all but penciling Mantha into a full time spot on the Wings last year. A spot on Pav's wing was almost his to lose in the minds of many. NOBODY is talking about Larkin making the team out of training camp. Nobody is kicking around the idea of giving him Nyquist and Abby and seeing how things go. Hopefully because most folks learned their lesson from a year ago. People should be excited about Larkin, he's a good prospect. But I'd wait until he's played more than a handful of games in the AHL before I go too crazy. As we saw last year, what you did after 50 games in the AHL is far more telling that what you did after 150 in lower leagues. I followed him back then, but didn't really think he would be that great. Back then he was fast and small and doing reasonably well in Juniors (something I don't really put much stock in). I attributed his success to being really quick in a noncompetitive league. Only after he grew a few inches, gained some weight, and tore up the AHL as a rookie did I start thinking he had some real potential on our hands. I absolutely did not see it coming.

True. And I would encourage those who don't have an opinion on the matter to refrain from opining. Which is a heck of a lot more honest than endlessly repeating how great Mantha is, until he isn't, and then going on a on about how great Larkin will be. If, heaven forbid, he's not that great in the AHL you can bet your ass this same poll will come up a year from now and Svechnikov will be the most common pick. But that doesn't really say much does it?

I picked him, even when we were including first rounders. So it's clear where I stand. But if we exclude him then there are some really interesting names out there. Bertuzzi, Pulkkinen, Turgeon, Sproul, Mrazek, Holmstrom, Saarijarvi, etc.

I think that a lot of the success attributed to Howard AND Mrazek really belongs to Babcock's shot suppression system. I'm not saying that either guy wouldn't be good otherwise, but it's pretty clear that they didn't get challenged nearly as much as most goalies do. I think I'd wait to see how things pan out under Blashill before I start penciling in starting goalies. Might be that Howard stink worse than we thought, and Petr easily takes the job. Then again, maybe Mrazek falters under more shots every single night and the veteran is our saving grace. Who knows?

I'd venture to guess that most of the folks reflexively choosing Larkin this year are the same folks who would have reflexively chosen Mantha last year. A better question would be, "which non first rounder will have the best NHL career?". I think it requires a little more critical thinking.

AA

Edit: Just to clarify, here's my position on this topic. Zetterberg circa 2008, played at a higher level than Toews ever has. So he's probably the better player overall. But not because Toews is overrated, but because Zetterberg was THAT good. Using points per game averages to decide the better player is dubious, and seems like cherry picking to me. Jason Spezza has better ppg numbers than Zetterberg. Is he better? Is he top ten? Truly elite? Probably not. If the only thing that you can use to criticize Toews' game is ppg, your argument doesn't hold water. All it really says it that Zetterberg is the better scorer, which is objectively true. Here's a list of all Toews' accomplishments. Seems pretty elite to me. All-WCHA Second Team 2006–07 AHCA West First-Team All-American 2006–07 WCHA All-Tournament Team 2007 [48] World U-17 Hockey Challenge MVP — 2005 World U-17 Hockey Challenge — 2005 WCHA Rookie of the Week — twice in 2005–2006 NCAA West Regional MVP — 2006 World Junior All-Star Team — 2007 Nominated for the Calder Memorial Trophy — 2008 4× NHL All-Star (2009, 2011, 2012,* 2015) All-Star selection of the 2010 Olympic Hockey Tournament[33] 2010 Winter Olympics — Gold Medalist, Best Forward[33] 2010 Stanley Cup Champion 2010 Conn Smythe Trophy winner Second-youngest to win the Conn Smythe Trophy (22 years, 41 days; only Patrick Roy was younger); youngest captain to win the Conn Smythe Trophy. Youngest person to gain entry into the Triple Gold Club (22 years, 41 days at time last component was achieved) Named full captain of an NHL team after only 64 NHL games; fourth youngest full captain (Gabriel Landeskog, Sidney Crosby and Vincent Lecavalier being the others) in NHL history and quickest by games One of only six players to win Olympic gold and the Stanley Cup in the same year. 2013 Frank J. Selke Trophy winner 2013 NHL Second All-Star Team 2013 Stanley Cup Champion 2014 Winter Olympics — Gold Medalist 2015 Stanley Cup Champion 2015 Mark Messier Leadership Award winner 2015 ESPY Best NHL Player

It seems like you're trying to show that Zetterberg is better by arguing that Toews isn't that good. Which is a pretty weak argument. Toews' accomplishments speak for themselves. Why not just acknowledge that Toews is a SUPER good hockey player. But that Zetterberg was even better for a few years there? Not sure why you're trying to tear one down to build the other up?

If two Olympic Gold medals and being fortunate enough to have a superstar laden team is good enough to make Mike Babcock the "best coach in the NHL", why isn't it enough to make Jonathan Toews the best player?

I think he probably got paid a little too much. But not terribly so. I guess my overall point is that for negotiation purposes, contracts for guys like Kane, Toews, and ROR matter. But in determining a players actual value they don't say much. All three of those guys got paid the way they did because of externalities. I guess what I'm saying is, there's a tendency to think "Well if O'Reilly got 7.5 then Voracek is worth 8.5". Which is how contract negotiations work, I understand, but it's flawed because O'Reilly isn't actually worth 7.5. He's just worth that to a desperate team.

I agree with your overall point, but I wouldn't look too much into your examples. Toews and Kane are worth whatever they want, for the most part. You can surround them with anybody else and they win you Cups. The return on investment with those two is insane. With O'Reilly it's just a matter of a bad team trying to put itself on the map. Any competitive team wouldn't have paid him that. But Buffalo desperately needs some legitimacy, to get it you need good players, and to get them (if you're a small market and you suck) you have to overpay. Guys like O'Reilly ain't going to Buffalo for the girls and the nightlife.

Aha, I understand you now. That's a legit point.

Toews is not overrated. He's like zetterberg. He's got superior Defense, puck control skills, vision, and competitiveness, and above average everything else. He's just not flashy, which makes everybody go gaga but doesnt make someone one iota more "elite". Kopitar is the same way.

Neither of Ehrhoff or Franson will sign a one year deal. I'd stake my poor reputation on it.

Yes. Z, Nyquist, and Abby isn't that great of a line.

Datsyuk is also highlighted in the Players' Tribune article on elite centers as well. I read all of them, about the offensive guys and the defense too. Some of them are informative, others just seem to be all about pumping other guys' tires. It's a toss up. I like Quick's because it's a goalie talkingabout forwards and not a defenseman talking about defensemen (for example). I'd like to see one about goalies, written by a scoring forward. That would be pretty sweet.

Based on our rousing Rousey discussion yesterday I hopped online and purchased my very own Ronda Rousey tshirt last night. I'll be rocking that s*** like a pro when Rousey smashes the living hell out of some weak ass Brazilian chick this weekend at UFC 190.