kipwinger

Babcock calls guys out all the time. He's done so with Kindl and Weiss recently. And justifiably do. He's done so with White, Commodore, Smith, and even Hudler in the past. Why is it no problem when Babs calls out a pro, but Jimmy D does so with a prospect? Again, I see no reason to poo poo the kid. The league, and/or the world, don't give a s*** how sensitive this kid is treated. You either get over the hump or you don't. That's on him. But I don't think the organization deserves praise and/or criticism for how delicately they treat an adult man. I turned 21 in Baghdad, Iraq. Nobody worried about my feelings, or all the intangibles, when I got performance feedback. If you sucked, they said you sucked, and you fixed it. I don't know why this kid deserves more. Because pro hockey is so hard? Maybe, but I'm not buying it.

All the detractors keep talking about how the Wings need accountability within the organization. Then Devallano comes out and tries to hold an underwhelming, yet highly anticipated, prospect accountable and people complain. Whatever, there's no reason to "poo poo" the kid. Athanasiou and Nosek were rookies, who dealt with injuries, this year too. I don't see anybody talking about how disappointed they are with AA or Nosek. Why? Because those guys figured it out and played like professionals. I'm not saying Mantha is a bust or anything. But I don't see a single problem with the organization voicing their dissatisfaction with his play. He's not been very good. Should they keep telling him how wonderful he's been?

I know right! Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, Jurco, Ferraro, Glendening, and Dekeyser all failed to win us the Cup in their second professional season. What a bunch of losers! Time to tear down and rebuild, because this strategy is obviously flawed.

Nah, she played fine.

I felt that way about the Capitals/Islanders series. It was a great seven games worth of hockey. It's educational to watch these other series. When you only watch one team, you have a tendency to get tunnel vision about the team's successes and failures. There are a lot of ways to be good, and bad, at professional hockey. Edit: Jesus Christ. Ovechkin is unreal. Too bad he was all washed up a couple years ago eh? Lol.

Boy that was dumb wasn't it?

Dang, Mantha has completely disappeared for the Griffs. As has Sproul. Those were the two guys I thought would have the easiest road to the NHL. Goes to show, a pro hockey scout I am not.

I know. Which is my point. Someone else said... "I'm 100% convinced he wants to leave because he doesn't see another Zetterburg or Datsyuk on this team or in the pipeline". I don't think he needs "another Datsyuk or Zetterberg". He's a better coach than that. And if he does need guys like that, and he's making his decision based on that, then that's pretty weak. He's said before he wants to be the most successful coach of his generation. I don't think a guy like that is afraid to take over a young team with potential, and turn them into winners. Rather than inherit an already developed group of stars.

Did they also play superstar defense and kill penalties? Then they weren't as good. Edit: None of the players you mentioned have been the best offensive AND defensive players at the same time. None. Only Lidstrom, Dats and Z. Babs surely realizes this, and isn't hedging his bets on trying to find that type of situation again.

Yes, I am saying that. Neither Kane, nor Toews, have been as good as Zetterberg and Datsyuk were in 2008. That's a fact. They simply weren't. Kane had 88 points and was a joke defensively defensively. Toews was better at defense, but scored 68. Datsyuk and Zetterberg score 90+ points, were world class defensive players AND played on both the PP and penalty kill to boot. If you think Toews and Kane in 2010 and 2012 were better (or as good) as Dats or Z in 2008 you're nuts. They weren't, by any objective measure. Kopitar is an excellent player. World class. He's never score 90+, played on both special teams, and played world class defense. Neither did Carter. Or Brown. Or Richards. Or Gaborik. No team, in the modern era has won the Cup with two players that good. Not Pittsburgh. Not Chicago. Not Los Angeles or Boston. People forget just how good Dats and Z and Lidstrom were in 2008. They were simultaneously two of the top five best offensive AND the defensive fowards in the world, at the same time. Lidstrom was THE best offensive and defensive defenseman at the same time. Nobody you mentioned was has every been that good. Period. And I'm honestly not even trying to rag on Babs here. I don't think he needs players that good to win. And if he does, I hope he's not holding his breath, because you're not likely to find anybody that good in a while. I'm criticizing folks who think that Babs is looking for another Pav and Z for his next job. There aren't another Pav and Z. Anywhere. Please, if you've got a single argument that suggests that any of Kopitar, Kane, Toews, Crosby, Malkin, or anybody else was as good as Dats and Z were in 2008, I'd love to hear it. Edit: I'm focusing on the forwards because that was the original context of the debate, but the same applies for the defense. Doughty and Keith are amazing. They're not better than Lidstrom was in 2008. Not even close. But again, my point is that I doubt finding "another Pav and Z" is Babs' primary motivation. Because he won't be able to, and he shouldn't need to. And if it is his primary motivation, then he's not that great.

Here's a list of forwards who got that kind of term and salary last year (3 year @ 4 mil, 4 years @ 3 mil, or in between). I'm not saying you're wrong. But if you look at the list and think he's about as valuable as these guys, then it's not really an overpayment. If he's not as valuable as these guys (roughly) then he'd be overpaid (assuming that's the contact he actually gets). Ales Hemsky Nikolay Kulemin Brian Gionta Ryan Johansen Milan Michalek Lars Eller Jussi Jokinen

You know who will be better next year as well? Detroit. We have two young point producers, a fast, aggressive, shutdown fourth line, a power forward who just had a monster year, and a goalie who won't totally suck in overtimes/ shootouts.

OK, just to clarify would you please explain how much YOU think Joel Ward is actually worth, and then explain how much you think he will actually get on the open market. In term, and dollar amounts, please. I don't want to be in the weeds regarding what you're saying, but this is starting to remind me of how everyone said Matt Niskanen would make close to 7 million per year, when in reality he made less than 6.

And like I said, if he can't win without a datsuk or zetterberg then he's not that good.

Thinking that Joel Ward would cost "top money" is even more foolish. Nobody thinks he's worth Zach Praise money. But if you think he will cost that much I've got to question your notion of value.

If that's really the case, then Mike Babcock isn't as great as everyone makes him out to be. Lots of teams win Cups without a Zetterberg or a Datsyuk. Joel Quenneville never had a 90+ point, two way, superstar. Neither did Darryl Sutter. Neither of them had a Lidstrom either. I sure hope that Babcock has more faith in his coaching ability than that. Because if he really thinks he can't win without a Datsyuk or Zetterberg, then he absolutely sucks.

My point was simply that you can't shy way from acquiring players on the off chance that they'll later get hurt and never be as good again. Stephen Weiss is not some cautionary tale. He's a modern day Brent Gilchrist. I didn't hear anybody saying "No Ken Holland, don't sign Marian Hossa in the offseason. What if he's another Brent Gilchrist?" That would be dumb. It would be equally dumb to avoid improving your team, in any way possible, because of the experience you had with Stephen Weiss.

I agree he is a bust. But neither you, nor Ken Holland, knew that at the time of the trade. People act like Holland traded for a player who was already a bust. Which isn't true. His sports hernia, failure to do anything about it, subsequent surgery, and improper rehab were the death knell of Stephen Weiss' career. All of which happened after the trade.

The suburbs of Detroit are some of the most affluent in the country. And downtown is WAY nicer than it was 10 years ago. It's on the uptick for sure. Plus, 3-5 million (or whatever Babs will get) goes a lot further in Michigan than it does in California. Just food for thought.

You knew that Datsyuk was a "very very special player" in 2002 when he scored 35 points, mostly passing to Brett Hull, and played 13 minutes a night? If that's true you have missed your calling as a professional hockey scout.

That's fairly spurious. Detroit was doing great before they got Cole and Zidlicky, after which they struggled. But it would be wrong to insinuate that Cole and Zidlicky were the cause of the drop off. A 60 point player who gets injured after the trade and then fails to regain is pre-injury form?

Is Joel Ward a free agent? I seriously have not heard about this. I'd take Ward. But Stafford is basically the same kind of player (both are basically similar to Abby). So we've got more than one option if Holland wants to find another Erik Cole in the off season.

Or maybe she has ambitions of her own? That would be rational I think. Or hell, maybe she just wants to stay in the place that's been her home for a decade. Where her kids grew up, and her friends live, and she feels comfortable? I don't think there's a ton of use speculating about the desires of Mike Babcock's wife. Especially since, unlike her husband, we know jack squat about her as a person.

Fact: Tatar and Nyquist are better point producers than Dats and Z were at that a similar point in their careers. The reason "some people" are putting them in the same category is because they've performed better...at least offensively.