kipwinger

OK, just to clarify would you please explain how much YOU think Joel Ward is actually worth, and then explain how much you think he will actually get on the open market. In term, and dollar amounts, please. I don't want to be in the weeds regarding what you're saying, but this is starting to remind me of how everyone said Matt Niskanen would make close to 7 million per year, when in reality he made less than 6.

And like I said, if he can't win without a datsuk or zetterberg then he's not that good.

Thinking that Joel Ward would cost "top money" is even more foolish. Nobody thinks he's worth Zach Praise money. But if you think he will cost that much I've got to question your notion of value.

If that's really the case, then Mike Babcock isn't as great as everyone makes him out to be. Lots of teams win Cups without a Zetterberg or a Datsyuk. Joel Quenneville never had a 90+ point, two way, superstar. Neither did Darryl Sutter. Neither of them had a Lidstrom either. I sure hope that Babcock has more faith in his coaching ability than that. Because if he really thinks he can't win without a Datsyuk or Zetterberg, then he absolutely sucks.

My point was simply that you can't shy way from acquiring players on the off chance that they'll later get hurt and never be as good again. Stephen Weiss is not some cautionary tale. He's a modern day Brent Gilchrist. I didn't hear anybody saying "No Ken Holland, don't sign Marian Hossa in the offseason. What if he's another Brent Gilchrist?" That would be dumb. It would be equally dumb to avoid improving your team, in any way possible, because of the experience you had with Stephen Weiss.

I agree he is a bust. But neither you, nor Ken Holland, knew that at the time of the trade. People act like Holland traded for a player who was already a bust. Which isn't true. His sports hernia, failure to do anything about it, subsequent surgery, and improper rehab were the death knell of Stephen Weiss' career. All of which happened after the trade.

The suburbs of Detroit are some of the most affluent in the country. And downtown is WAY nicer than it was 10 years ago. It's on the uptick for sure. Plus, 3-5 million (or whatever Babs will get) goes a lot further in Michigan than it does in California. Just food for thought.

You knew that Datsyuk was a "very very special player" in 2002 when he scored 35 points, mostly passing to Brett Hull, and played 13 minutes a night? If that's true you have missed your calling as a professional hockey scout.

That's fairly spurious. Detroit was doing great before they got Cole and Zidlicky, after which they struggled. But it would be wrong to insinuate that Cole and Zidlicky were the cause of the drop off. A 60 point player who gets injured after the trade and then fails to regain is pre-injury form?

Is Joel Ward a free agent? I seriously have not heard about this. I'd take Ward. But Stafford is basically the same kind of player (both are basically similar to Abby). So we've got more than one option if Holland wants to find another Erik Cole in the off season.

Or maybe she has ambitions of her own? That would be rational I think. Or hell, maybe she just wants to stay in the place that's been her home for a decade. Where her kids grew up, and her friends live, and she feels comfortable? I don't think there's a ton of use speculating about the desires of Mike Babcock's wife. Especially since, unlike her husband, we know jack squat about her as a person.

Fact: Tatar and Nyquist are better point producers than Dats and Z were at that a similar point in their careers. The reason "some people" are putting them in the same category is because they've performed better...at least offensively.

I'd agree about Green. He's a bottom pair defender on a good team. But Franson is a pretty significant upgrade over everybody on our blueline other than Kronwall. He's like Dekeyser with offensive skills. The reason he didn't look good in Nashville had more to do with the rest of the defense than with his ability IMO. They already had three point producing defensemen (Weber, Josi, Jones), and Franson wasn't leaned upon that heavily. His ice time went down nearly 6 minutes per game. Not surprising his offense suffered. Nevertheless, he still produced a little and played well defensively. My only question about Franson is his foot speed, which isn't great. I don't like the idea of a slow team. But then again he's probably not much slower than Ericsson, Quincey, or Marchenko, so as long as he's playing where they would be, it's a wash.

Zetterberg was considered the better player earlier in their careers. He was a Rookie of the Year finalist. If anything, he looked more like a star than Dats did early on. Datsyuk wasn't a "complete player" when he came into the league. He learned to play that way later. When he came into the league he was legitimately criticized for being soft on the puck, trying to stick handle too much and not making the simple play, and not shooting enough. His breakout year was his third, and it wasn't until his fourth that people regarded him as one of the top players in the league (which happens when you score 80+ points). And even up through 2007 people were still wondering if he could be "the guy" in Detroit, considering he hadn't been great in the playoffs until that year. This notion that Dats was a superstar right from the start, is completely romanticized.

Unless he had cancer, it's not much of an excuse. He had 3 goals and 9 assists in 37 games over three post seasons. Zetterberg had 9 goals and 2 assists in 22 games over three post seasons. And BOTH of them were playing on a a team chocked full of hall of fame talent. If people are going to talk about Nyquist and Tatar's "struggles", or talk about how they have to be surrounded by stars to look good, they need only look at Dats and Z's careers as evidence of exactly what that means for long term projections. There is a tendency among some Wings fans to act like Dats and Zetterberg were superstars the minute the came into the league, and that everybody knew all along that they'd be great. But it isn't true. When they came into the league they looked like Tatar and Nyquist do now...except maybe not quite as good.

While I don't disagree with your logic, I will say this. Tatar and Nyquist have outperformed Datsyuk and Zetterberg (both regular season and playoffs) at similar points in their careers. Dats and Z weren't very good in the playoffs at all during their first few years. And they were about the same ages when they came into the league (arguably both with MORE experience than Nyquist or Tats). I agree, there's nothing to guarantee that either of these guys will be stars. But based on the information we have, and observation and comparison to our last two stars, I don't think it's out of the question either. At the very least it's premature to think these two guys are don't improving given their respective ages and experience levels. Consistent 65-70 point seasons is not out of the question for either of them. Which isn't super star talent, but isn't anything to scoff at either.

Right, but you're creating one hole to fill another. The Miller-Glendenig-Ferraro line was absolutely steller defensively all series long. They, more than anything else (except maybe Mrazek) kept us in the series. But it's a catch-22. In order to keep Tampa's offense at bay, you had to play our fourth line 18 minutes a night. And if you do that, you won't score much. So you've got to take advantage of the chances you get. We didn't. Plus don't forget that Pulkkinen wasn't exactly scoring like gangbusters before he was sent down. He's not that much of a scoring threat at this point in his NHL tenure. He's also slow as hell, and Babcock stated he wanted a fast roster to keep up with Tampa. I think the right decision was made. We played as well as we could have without winning, but in the end we lost to a team that was simply much deeper and more talented than we were. Just like Chicago two years ago.

I knew there was a reason I liked Tony Granato lol.

I like to imagine this sound coming out of Julien in that picture.

You're right. He's been pretty consistent in seeking out alternative viewpoints, at least since I've been paying attention. But I don't think Number9's comments were as much directed at anything Babs has said or done, but more toward those who seem to think that having more roster input will be a determining factor in his decision making.

True, I guess maybe Julien seems more of a whiner because of his theatrics. Also, I am noticing a French trend here.

God bless you.

I would offer the first overall to Buffalo for the 2nd overall pick, Rasmus Ristolainen, and Sam Reinhart. Let's see how bad they really want Conner McDavid. If they accepted I would then trade Ryan Nugent Hopkins for the best possible veteran top six center I could get (plus whatever else), sign a veteran depth centerman, and look to add one or two veteran defensemen in free agency. All in all, leaving your organization with this as a future core: Jack Eichel Leon Draisaitl Sam Reinhart Taylor Hall Jordan Eberle Nail Yakupov Rasmus Ristolainen Justin Schultz

Awfully scatological lately aren't we?

I'd be really careful about fully trusting Mrazek with the starting job right now. Not because he hasn't been excellent. But because our system limits shots to such a degree that it's a little easier for a young guy to come in and play well. Certainly he had huge games, where he faced a lot of shots and did well, but he also had a lot of games where he didn't face many at all. If Babs leaves, and the system becomes less (excruciatingly) defensive, Mrazek will face more shots on average. And I'd feel more comfortable if we had a veteran like Howard there for insurance. If the kid plays well, then no sweat. And if he struggles at first, you're safe.