kipwinger

When you google his name, google provides a short summary profile on the right side of the screen and it has him listed as 170 lbs. That's where I saw it, but clearly that's not a good source.

You're right. I was looking at the wrong thing. My mistake.

Two legit points, but both still exist if you trade for a pending FA anyway. You're going to have to get them to choose Detroit and sign a contract either way. But in only one of the two instances will they be losing assets. Given how notoriously tight fisted Holland is, I just don't seeing him giving away assets unless he can make a run at the Cup. But points taken. And agree with.

From the Griffins website. They've actually got him listed at 170 lbs, but I gave him a few pounds.

Well unless you believe that "anything can happen once you get in", making the playoffs doesn't make one a contender. If Holland doesn't think we're a contender (rather than just in the playoff picture), then I imagine he'd forgo spending good young assets on a guy like Petry or Green (for example) when he can get either one of them in free agency for a contract and zero prospects, picks, etc. Sure this team is in the playoff picture, but they currently can't beat other playoff caliber teams. So even though they'll likely make the playoffs, if they're probably not a Cup contender. As such I don't see him spending assets on something he can get for nothing in free agency in July. If they prove me wrong and start beating good teams, then maybe he will. It's really not difficult logic folks.

I know this thread will quickly slip into obscurity, but oh well. I was just looking at Chris Osgood's 2008 playoff performance (because I like to imagine that single performance created the "Mike Babcock as genius" myth), and it was ungodly. If not for Osgood, we get beat in the first round. 14-4 record 1.55 goals against. 930 save percentage 3 shutouts (2 in the finals).

But didn't you know, he was a better Red Wing than Hossa, who should have been kept over Franzen, who should have been signed to a long term, Zetterberg-like, front loaded contract. Duh. And around and around we go.

A couple years ago he had 24 in 70+ games. He's always had the ability to score at lower levels, because he's REALLY fast. But unless he can put some weight on (he's 175 lbs. now), he's never going to translate that success into the NHL IMO.

He probably doesn't punch them, but there's a good chance he helps neuter them with his stick.

I agree. Honestly I think both could be traded without too much harm done to the team, but I don't see it happening. With regard to Nyquist, while I agree that he's good with Zetterberg, I don't think he's been very good at all lately. Teams are checking him tight and not giving him any room to make plays. I think he'd benefit from the mismatch on the third line. Plus, it's not like Franzen and Z don't play well together. They have for years. And I'm convinced that Weiss will flourish if moved back to center. He sees the ice really well, is a strong passer, and can makes plays quickly. Put him with a couple of proven guys and I think the line will (collectively) do some damage.

How's about this for lines (when people are healthy): Tats-Datsyuk-Abby Z-Weiss-Franzen Nyquist-Sheahan-Jurco/Helm Miller-Glendening-Jurco/Helm

I think you've pinpointed it exactly.

I agree, in part. My point is that while a solid puck mover is a necessary condition for being a contender, I don't think (given the way we've been playing) it's a sufficient one. As such, I don't see Holland going out and getting one just to get one. If, however, we can string together some wins and play well against good teams (i.e. we're better than I think we are) then maybe Holland decides a puck mover is sufficient for Cup contention, and he pulls the trigger. Right now I think he's trying to figure out which is the case. If the team wants a puck mover before the off-season, they better prove that they can run with the big boys.

"It seems like a lifetime, or at least a Main Era -- the kind of peak that never comes again...Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run... There was madness in any direction, at any hour...You could strike sparks anywhere. There was a fantastic universal sense that whatever we were doing was right, that we were winning...And that, I think, was the handle -- that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn't need that. Our energy would simply prevail. There was no point in fighting -- on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. So now, less than five days later...you can almost see the high-water mark -- that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back."

It's highly unlikely that the two of them will run into each other as only one of them will be visiting a National Hockey League ice surface anytime soon.

It should be pretty obvious by now that pictures of Brian McGrattan don't have the same visceral affect on me that they do on you. Although, I will say that it's fitting that you chose a picture of him doing something other than skating.

Let's see what you actually said in 2009 shall we? Here's what you said before Franzen signed his long term, front loaded, Zetterberg-like contract...http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/topic/55479-need-to-get-hudlerfranzen-signed-long-term/page-3?hl=%20franzen%20%20signed "...at this point Hudler will probably cost more or just as much as Franzen! So, get Franzen signed long term and let Hudler sign somewhere else. If he signs somewhere else for anywhere between 2.6 and 3.9 million, we WILL get a 1st and a 3rd round pick from that team. That there is more valuable than signing Hudler and letting Franzen walk. Hudler will more than likely get that 2.6 million. Get Franzen signed the front loaded way Zetterberg was, let Huds, McCarty, Chelios, Sammy walk and get Hossa signed to a similar Zetterberg contract. Must trade Filpulla in ANY scanario so we can get that $3 million off the books. Filpulla should get us a 2nd round pick. At the very least a 3rd." Here's what you said the day of the Franzen signing, in the "Franzen signs Extension" Thread...http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/topic/56801-johan-franzen-signs-extension-11-years/page-6 "Just as a few of us said a long time ago! Bye Bye Filppulla, Hudler & Sammy for sure! Hello HOSSA long term! Hudler with get at least the same somewhere so HELLO 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick! Trade Flip for a 2nd and 3rd and lets go!" And here's what you said one day after the Franzen signing...http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/topic/56801-johan-franzen-signs-extension-11-years/page-11 "Quickly, I like Franzen but if he wanted to have to best available chance(s) to win Cups within those 11 years, he should've have signed a contract that had a cap hit more like $2.9M. This pretty much screws us for Hossa, unless he takes a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE discount to stay here OR he signs somewhere for 1 year OR takes another 1 year deal at that same discount, then comes back when Lidstroms contract is off the books. Of course if Lids wants to stay he MUST take a HUGE discont as well. Franzen just tied the hands if Holland and Holland allowed it to happen." And here's what you said a few weeks after Hossa signed with Chicago...http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/topic/60109-chicago-fans-dont-want-hossa/?hl=%2Bchicago+%2Bfans+%2Bhossa "Anyway, Hossa scored 40 goals for us, that is it. That is all his history will leave us. Luc Robitaille and Brett Hull were "Better" Red Wings than Hossa. Larry Murphy is a "Better" Red Wing than Hossa. Steve Duschene was more important to this team. For Gods sake, Keith Primeau meant more to this team!" I wouldn't go around gloating. At best, your record on the Franzen/Hossa topic is flip floppy. At worst, you wanted Franzen re-signed (like he was) and you though Steve Duschene and Keith Primeau meant more to the Red Wings than Hossa did.

I was just about to edit my other post and say that rather than the next 12-15 games, it's basically all the way up to the trade deadline. The schedule between Feb. 16 and Mar. 4 is disgusting. We better show up, because if we keep playing like we are now that's A LOT of points we're looking to lose.

I mean, obviously I'd like to see more offense from the back end. But as I said before, I don't see Holland parting with assets until the team proves that it can play (and win) consistently. I think the next 12-15 games are critical. First, because they're the games leading up to the trade deadline and we'll have a better idea of who's available (elsewhere as well as for Detroit). But also because we'll finally be playing a steady diet of high quality teams. If we s*** the bed against them, I don't see Holland doing anything. If we split (or heaven forbid, win a majority), I could see him being a little more likely to bring in some help. But this team has to prove itself before a smart GM like Holland is going to go out and spend valuable assets on a run they may not be able to make (even with the help).

I hope you're right (about the upcoming games), but I'm not holding my breath. As far as the first part, I don't doubt we'll make the playoffs. But I"d like to make a little noise once we get there. And I don't hold out a lot of hope for that when I see how we play against playoff caliber teams. Again, I'd love to be wrong. I'm not even saying the sky is falling. But I strongly disagree with anyone who thinks this team is a contender, or even "heading in the right direction", when they haven't beat anyone good in a month, and have lost to quite a few BAD teams (Florida, Columbus, Toronto, Colorado) during that same stretch. They need to figure out what they were doing right in November and early December. I wish I knew what it was. I'd email them the answer right now.

The only teams we've beat in a month are Buffalo, New Jersey, Ottawa, Edmonton, and Calgary. Seriously, we haven't beat a playoff bound team in a month. And at some point we've got to stop with all this "we're not competing", "we're not playing our best hockey", "this group is better than that", "we need a 60 minute effort". I'm not being negative just to be negative. But regardless of how many points you've got, to be a good team you've got to beat good teams. We aren't. Which makes me think all the points we've got are the product of a weak early season schedule, and not because we're that great. Here's hoping Babs and the boys prove me wrong. I'd love to be. But to do that they've got to go at least .500 against playoff caliber teams.

He clearly did that just to make it to the playoffs. This year it looks like that shouldn't be a problem, so I don't see him doing something similar. I guess I'm talking about an impact trade more than anything. Nobody expected the Legwand deal to make us a contender.

As I said in the other thread, we've got to win some games (convincingly) before Holland makes a trade. In the past he's made trades to "get us over the hump", not "get us to the hump". This team can't beat good teams right now, and doesn't really look impressive when they beat bad teams. Why give up good young assets for a playoff rental when you are clearly more than a piece or two away from being a contender? If we play like we did in November, and do it consistently, Holland makes a trade. If we play like we did Saturday, then Holland stands pat. Which is good, because the team I watched Saturday needs a lot more than Jeff Petry to make them a contender.

I think Holland definitely makes a trade if we're playing like we did in November when we looked like a contender. But even with a healthy team, since then we've looked inconsistent. When we win it's not convincing, and when we lose it looks like garbage. In the past Holland has made trades to "get over the hump". Not to "get up to the hump". If we don't start stringing together wins, and doing so convincingly, then I don't see him shipping out talent for playoff rentals. I agree. That was my point. After the last couple season you knew that as soon as a couple people got hurt it was going to be..."here we go again". It's b.s., but here it is.

Who's "taking fighting out"? GMs are voluntarily waiving goons because they're useless. There is ZERO effort by ANYONE to "take fighting out". It's not like Gary Bettman is forcing teams to waive guys like Brandon Prust or Steve Ott because they occasionally fight. If you fight once in a while and can play hockey, you get to keep your job. If you are a useless tub of s*** (read: McGrattan) then you hit the bricks. But that's because he's useless, not because someone is "taking fighting out" of hockey.