kipwinger

God I hope we don't have to rely on this team to score a bunch of goals tonight. I'm not ready for more disappointment quite yet. The last three games have been tough enough as it is.

NJ has got plenty of people capable of putting the puck in the net. We better be tight defensively tonight or else this might not go as smoothly as we'd all like.

Jesus Christ. Do you two think that Smith only got a minus last night because of a bad change by Kindl? He was on the ice for two goals against last night. He was a -1 because he got one back on the Cleary goal. Smith got caught pinching on the Stempniak goal. Ok, here's a link to last night's highlights. You'll notice that Kindl is on the ice for exactly two goals last night. His, and Tatar's. You'll also notice Smith on the ice for three goals, St. Louis', Cleary's, and Stempniaks'. So even if you want to blame the St. Louis goal on Kindl (which is dubious because the forwards were changing too and there were only 3 Red Wings on the ice when St. Louis received the pass (:30 on video)), Smith's still on the hook for the bad pinch that led to the 2 on 1 on the Stempniak goal (freeze the video as 1:11 to see Smith getting beat). I can do the same with the Buffalo game as well, Smith was on the ice and involved in both goals against that night too. In the last three games there have been 5 even strength goals against. Smith was on the ice for 4 of them, and has contributed an assist. Kindl was on the ice for one of them (an empty netter against Ottawa) and contributed 2 points toward wins. So even if you want to give one of Smith's minuses to Kindl for last night, you still have to admit Kindl's been better because the only other goal scored on him for three games was an empty netter at the end of the Ottawa game Is it really that hard for people to admit that for three games (that's all I'm talking about), Kindl has done his job well and Smith has performed his job less well? Is thef****** sky going to fall? It doesn't mean Kindl's a better player. He's just fulfilled his responsibilities better for three games. That's it. Why is that so hard? Link: http://espn.go.com/nhl/recap?gameId=400564091 Edit: Slow that video down and you'll notice that Kindl is off the ice, and Smith is on the ice before the pass to St. Louis out of the defensive zone is even made.

Because comments like this don't egg me on or anything.

Yer right. Kindl sux! Durr Hurr.

I'm curious why you think they weren't fine?

I'm pursuing this because because you (and everybody else) collectively shuddered at the mere thought of those two together. And we lost the three games that they were together. And we've got people in the GDT blaming them for the losses. But the TRUTH of the matter is that over three games they contributed more positives than negatives. And we could maybe have an accurate and substantive discussion about the team, defense, season etc. if more people acknowledged the truth, even if it shows they weren't right (in this particular instance). At a time when we needed Kindl and Lashoff to not suck, they didn't. Kudos. Instead, not a single person (apparently other than me) is willing to say that they did a good job during Quincey's absence (which, as I understand, will be over by next game). So it'll be more of the same. And the only discussions we'll have are about how bad "Kindl sux"and about how "Lashoff's a plug". Because that's fits the popular narrative. But that's not what happened this time.

First of all, it's not on me to go to ridiculous lengths to prove anything. You want to show why all four goals scored while Smith was on the ice (over the last three games) aren't his fault, by all means go ahead. He was on the ice for 3 goals against during the Buffalo game. Where those Kindl's fault too? You have no idea. You're just defending Smith because (for some reason) you don't like the thought that Kindl can, once in a while, play better than Smith does. He's doing it right now. Get over it. Secondly, I know Smith and Dekeyser play tougher minutes. But that doesn't make their mistakes less harmful. In fact, it makes them more harmful because when playing against better opponents (or in the defensive zone) your mistakes are MORE likely to end up in the back of the net. Being a better player means Smith gets more opportunity than Kindl or Lashoff. That means more opportunity to succeed AND to fail. For three games our second pair hasn't been succeeding. And that is demonstrably true.

I do agree that we both want him gone. What I don't get is why you're trying so hard to make them out to be worse than they have been this year. Last year they stunk. I agree. But they haven't been bad in their three games this season. In three games that pair has given up one goal (even strength) and contributed to one even strength goal (Lashoff's assist). During that same stretch Dekeyser's numbers were the same as Lashoff's and Smith was on the ice for 4 even strength goals against and assisted on one. I agree that Dekeyser and Smith play harder minutes etc. etc., but that doesn't make their screw ups less harmful. And they've done it more frequently the last three games. I just don't understand why you (and everybody else) can't admit that for three game Kindl and Lashoff have been fine. They haven't cost us a thing.

The stats I provided are not "good old +/-". For instance, in the last three games Smith is a -3. But that obscures the fact that he's been on the ice for 4 goals against. Conversely, Kindl is -1 and has been on the ice for 1 goal against. If you only look at +/- (which I wasn't) then the disparity looks better than it is. Over the last three games Smith got scored on at 4 times the rate Kindl did, not three. The only reason it looks better is because Smith's point came 5 on 5 and Kindl's 2 points came on the powerplay. But the fact of the matter is, Kindl's points to goals against ration is +1 while Smith's is -3 (over the last three games). Or, in other words. Kindl contributed more to a potential victory, and less to a potential defeat (over those three games). Lashoff was dead even. If there's blame to go around, it's not on them (this time). Smith is the better player. He just wasn't the better player over the last three games. And he has more responsibility, so he NEEDS to be the better player for our team to be successful (as do all players with bigger roles). Smith's four goals against didn't cost us momentum? Dare I say, more momentum? You're just trying to find inventive ways to blame them despite the fact that they've been objectively better for three games. They're not a great pairing. I know. But they haven't cost us s***. Edit: Lol. I've been selling myself short. Smith was actually on the ice for 4 goals against the last three games. He was on for two in the Buffalo game and he was on the ice for two last night.

Lol. Now now Harold, I was just poking fun at you a little bit. I've already explained (in last night's GDT) why the Kindl-Lashoff pairing has done nothing to contribute to the last three losses. My comment above was a light hearted attempt at acknowledging our disagreement. You seem to have WAY too much invested in Kindl and Lashoff not being good. Which is confusing. You should celebrate it. All the sooner Kindl will be gone.

I agree. But that's part of the problem isn't it? Making average guys "look" good. Does anybody remember when Ian White was Lidstrom's partner, and everybody kept commenting that White "looks" like a top pairing guy when playing next to Lids? It was true, he "looked" fine. Trouble was, Ian White ISN'T a top pairing defenseman. And when the rubber hits the road he's going to play like a 2nd or 3rd pairing guy instead of a top pairing guy because that's what he is. He didn't become better by playing with Lidstrom. He mistakes were just less harmful. That's the by-product of Babs' system. It can make Ericsson "look" like a number 2 defenseman. It can make Darren Helm "look" like a top six forward. And we all forget that ideally you don't want that. Babs' system can make underachievers competitive sure. But what happens when you run up against a team that's just as competitive, and has the right players in the right positions? You get spanked. Because an average player is an average player. Mind you, none if that is Babs' fault. He plays with what he's got. If KH wants average top four defense play, he should keep the top four he has now. If he wants above average play, he needs better defensemen.

I agree. I said the same thing about Kindl and Smith the other day to krsmith. I think they would both be much better under a different coach's system. Babs doesn't want guys who wheel and deal and both those guys have skill sets conducive to a run and gun style of play. Babs wants guys like Lids, Kronwall, and Rafalski who are all smart, heads up, defensemen who add offense through point shots and great passing. Not Kind or Smith's game.

I agree. He's a better player. But since he's been gone Lashoff has done absolutely nothing to cost us points. True, he's done absolutely nothing to contribute either. But that's not really expected out of your 7th defenseman. I'm just sick of everybody scapegoating bottom pair defensemen and grinders when things aren't their fault. By all mean, crucify them if they're screwing up, but lets be objective about it. Over the last three games Brendan Smith has been our worst defenseman. Clearly. Verifiably. Demonstrably. Yet nobody wants to say so because for whatever reason Brendan gets a pass and Kindl (and Lashoff) suck. When it's their fault, so say. When it's somebody else's, we should all have the balls to say that too.

Well don't misunderstand me. I'm the President of his fan club only inasmuch as I want him to do well enough to get traded. He's not a terrible third pairing defenseman but he gets paid too much and I really like some of those kids. Yes. He's still got minor league options. If Kindl plays good enough for LGW to call him "solid" he'll be on another team next year. Catch-22.

And now, for funsies let's see how the first and second pairs have looked in the three games we lost (that Quincey was out). Kronwall: 0 goals, 0 assists, +/- 0: On the ice for one goal against, and one goal for. Ericsson: 0 goals, 0 assists, +/- 0: On the ice for one goal against, and one goal for. Dekeyser: 0 goals, 1 assist, +/- 0: On the ice for one goal against and one goal for. Smith: 0 goals, 1 assist, -3: On the ice for four goals against and one goal for. Conclusion: Losing games is not entirely anybody's fault. However, if we feel absolutely inclined to blame any particular defensive pairing it's got to be the second pair. Kindl and Lashoff have been fine. They're not relied on for much, and they haven't disappointed. Conversely, the second pair has more responsibility (ostensibly because they're better players) and they've s*** the bed for three games. Empirical stats don't back up that assessment. Even if they're getting hemmed into our zone, it hasn't cost us a thing. So who cares? Our second pair is getting scored on at even strength. Not the third. Not a single one of the last three losses has been on their shoulders. That's all I'm saying.

Ah yes, the Kindl-Lashoff pair. What a big problem they are. Let's unpack this a little further. Quincey has been out, and that pair has been together, for three games. We lost all of them. Surely they're to blame right? Lashoff: 0 goals, 0 assists, +/- 0. On the ice for 1 goal against, and one goal for. Kindl: 1 goal (powerplay), 1 assist, +/- -1. On the ice for 1 goal against, and no goals for. (Edit: Kindl's goal and assist were on the PP and aren't reflected in the goals for and against I've posted here) Wow. They're absolutely killing us. That or they're doing almost EXACTLY what a third pair should, holding their own. But why don't we scapegoat them instead. It's easier.

I don't think that anyone REALLY believes it's meaningless. Just that it shouldn't become and end in-and-of itself. Which it kinda did last year with regard to the Legwand-Jarnkrok trade. Or at least you could make a good argument that it did.

Harold, you must have been in the mood to argue last night or something. This argument is days old, no need to drag it up. Conversely, last night at 9:53 while you were typing this post, I was watching Jakub Kindl score a goal and add an assist in what was undoubtedly his best game of the season. Without Quincey. :-)

Lol. Sure. And in the future I'll just debate hockey with myself since between the two of us I'm the only one who thought to look up disputed stats on the official NHL website rather than relying on some tertiary source and then sticking with it (obstinately) after the veracity of the stats was called into question. And since it's my job to make sure you've got correct information before spewing your point of view forth, here's a helpful tip for future arguments: Don't use unofficial data if you don't want to be wrong. Everybody knows that. Now you do to.

I had to turn the game off a little early last night. Do my eyes deceive me or did Jakub Kindl nab a goal and assist last night? I hope he keeps that up for about 5 more games so we can trade his ass. Anybody not on board the "Kindl 4 Prez" bandwagon right now doesn't love this team. Simple as that.

What a save MONSTER!

Whelp, Dano just earned his next 9 games and million dollar bonus. Babs will never scratch him again haha.

How hilarious if Kindl and Cleary are the goal scorers lol.

Thank god for that.