kipwinger

To be fair, literally half of our defense can NEITHER play defense NOR score points. He's at least an improvement in that regard.

That's the well known starting place when we were inquiring about guys under contract, like Myers and Yandle. Not for expiring contracts. Just because one trade scenario would require Mantha in return doesn't mean ALL trade scenarios would require Mantha in return. Also, it's only been "reported" that the starting point is Mantha, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco...by people like Helen St. James no less. The very same people that had Niskanen going for 6+ million a year, Ehrhoff going for 5 years, Boyle for 5.5 mil a season, and Vanek for over 7 million a year. In short, the very same people who ALSO don't know s*** about the value of hockey players.

Why O Why does everyone think that the starting point for every single trade on earth is a high end prospect or roster player with upside? None of Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, or Mantha would go the other way in a trade for Green. Good god, just look at every other deadline deal for guys who aren't superstars. You ever see those kinds of roster players or prospects going the other way for a teams fourth defenseman? Anaheim got ONE top prospect, a mid tier prospect, and a 1st for Bobby Ryan...and he was under (a very affordable) contract. Mike Green will DEFINITELY not cost us more than that. Where do these relative values come from?

I sure hope not. A year and a half or so ago I stated that Pulkkinen would be a bust and Nedomlel would be a sleeper. Pulkkinen is already making me look bad, Nedomlel really needs to step up.

This is just me being a fanboy. But I'm always ok with the idea of "going with Sproul". This kid is going to be the next Doughty. He was an absolute steal. Size, speed, shot, athleticism, smarts. I legitimately think he'll be a better player than Mantha even, but that's just me. Anyway, back on topic. Green would help, but I'd definitely not trade too much to get him. AND it would be wise to dump salary where you could to offset the acquisition (Kindl and Andersson).

I agree with you guys, chances are that both Dats and Z play more than 45 games. They almost certainly will. But I think it obscures the point a little. Sure they'll play more than 45 games, but what if they only play 60...65? We're f***ed either way. Hell, what if each Datsyuk and Zetterberg only miss 10 games but they happen to be games against the teams we're competing with for a playoff spot? Remember how bunched together everyone was last year? To me, the important point is that without those guys playing 100% on almost every given night, our team isn't very competitive. Maybe the emergence of Nyquist, Tatar, etc. will render this a moot point...but I'm not sure everyone is convinced of this YET. Hence the allure of signing or trading for an impact player. Then everyone could sigh a little when Dats goes down and say "whew, at least we've got Kesler, or Stastny, or Spezza, or whomever", and not "whew at least we've got Weiss, Helm, or Sheahan".

Every single person I mentioned came to those teams before they were contenders. That's why I mentioned them. And no, Billups didn't suck before coming to Detroit. I usually agree with you, but you're off base on this. The Lions have never been a contender, the Pistons were one AFTER they signed Billups and traded for Hamilton and Wallace, and the Tigers were a contender after signing Guillen, Ordonez, and Rodriguez.

Another thing about Green is, I'm not sure how bad he really is defensively. I mean, I'm positive he's not going to be some stud shutdown defender. But I always take reports about Washington players being "lazy" or "bad defensively" or "not a team player" with a grain of salt. They've bred a culture of lazy, defensively irresponsible, play for years. When guys go there, they play poor defense and are lackluster, and when they leave they play good hockey. I think part of the reason why they picked Trotz was to change all that. Green has the skating and size to be a decent defender, not great...but decent. Like Rafalski. Could Green be that for someone other than Washington? I don't know. But I'm pretty positive he's never, in his entire career, been asked to be up to this point.

I'll agree with the first part, the city is not the issue...or at least is hasn't been for guys like Ivan Rodriguez, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Guillen, Reggie Bush, Golden Tate, Chauncey Billups, etc. etc. etc. On the subject of Babs I'll say this. What happened in FA wasn't his fault. He's not in charge of managing the roster. I do, however, think that players don't look at him like they did at Bowman. Sure, Scotty was a d*ck, but he coached a powerhouse team that realistically could win the cup every year. Babs is a d*ck whose team isn't going to win s***. So why deal with him? Ken Hitchcock is notoriously difficult to play for, and he gets FAs because his team is a contender. I think players would tolerate Babs if we could compete, but we can't, so they don't. Not his fault, but it does play a part.

Garrison going for a second might have been the best deal made last week. While he's no means a superstar, a 2nd for a guy that can move the puck, run the powerplay, and give you 30-40 pts., is a steal. I'd have given a second for him...oh wait...what happened to our 2nd again? Edit: Also, how does everyone feel about this Mike Green speculation? He's got dynamic offensive skills from the back end, despite his pretty obvious lack of defense. But most importantly, I can't imagine that his cost would be too high given his injury history, expiring contract, big salary, and defensive limitations. The downside, of course, is that he's not great defensively and he's expensive, but I don't think there's any doubt he can move the puck and quarterback a PP. For me it depends on if he's finally got the injury woes behind him.

There are probably a lot of reasons why we didn't have any luck landing FAs this year, but I thought this was interesting. A quote from Patrick Eaves about joining the Stars... "He's got a real good thing going down there. I know they're a hard team to play against and yeah, they're making moves. They're going places and I want to be a part of it," Eaves said on Monday. Seems like if you haven't been successful in the recent past, and you're doing things to address that, players pay attention. I'm certainly not suggesting that you "do something just to do it" or that Patrick Eaves is the kind of FA you want. But rather that guys want to win, and they recognize when a team is trending upward or downward.

What do you think the Wings biggest problem is?

I totally agree. I was being a smart ass about how bad Holland had been at trading lately. I agree, it would take more than Helm and a first. I also don't think it would be worth it, because Tyler Myers isn't very good.

I generally agree with you guys as far as trade values, but honestly, did anyone think Kenny would give up Jarnkrok and a 2nd for David Legwand on an expiring contract, or a 1st for Kyle Quincey? You really can't blame people for having strange views on trades, it's not like trading has been done competently in Detroit in a while. People don't really have much to base their opinions on.

Aha, the old eyeball test. So your opinion is based on how you think the team ought to be coached, and is almost exclusively predicated on Babcock (widely considered one of the league's top coaches) being wrong about Smith's abilities? Right. Which is more likely? One of the best coaches in the league wildly misuses a valuable player to the detriment of the team. Or, a mediocre player who a good coach doesn't use in important situations is, nevertheless, overrated by fans. Also, only one of Tatar and Smith is paid to play defense well. It'll be the one with the "D" next to his name on the roster. The other is paid to be a 185 lb. scoring winger...which he does...well.

Wait, Tatar's 19 goals and 39 points (as a rookie) are something to scoff at because it's been done before, but Smith's 19 pts. and bad defense are somehow "better" and therefore more rare? Lol. Also, Kronwall didn't play his best defense when paired with Smith. He had his highest Corsi rating. Those aren't the same things.

Based on what? What has he accomplished that is anything like a rookie forward coming in and scoring 39 points? I don't expect Smith to have THE SAME accomplishments, that's dumb. But if he was as good, I'd expect him to have EQUIVALENT accomplishments, which he doesn't. Also, what does he bring that we need? He's an offensive defenseman who doesn't play defense and doesn't score many points. He had fewer hits than any defenseman other than Kindl, and he doesn't play special teams. You keep saying that he brings so much, or that he's better than Tatar. Tell me what he did and what he brings to the team. I'm dying to know.

Nobody is saying that Tatar can never be traded or that we can't live without him. I'm saying if you're going to trade a player who has been as good as Tatar, you should try to get a return greater than a guy who just scored fewer points than Danny Dekeyser, with more ice time, while playing a tenth the defense. Can everyone at least recognize that nobody is saying Tatar is untouchable? I'm saying that Tatar is really valuable as a secondary scorer on a team that lacks offense. As such, I would need a much bigger return on him than Tyler Myers, a guy who has been consistently underwhelming for most of his career. We need Tatar's offense more than we need a project defenseman. Is that clear? If you're going to trade Tatar (which I'm theoretically ok with) please do it for someone who's value to the team is tangible and not predicated on a bunch of "ifs".

It's not a matter of opinion. Smith has not done anything of note in his professional career. And you can't use their respective positions as a way of shirking that fact. That's like saying Datsyuk and Kronwall can't be compared because they don't play the same position. Datsyuk is better at his position than Kronwall is at his. Likewise, Tatar is better at his position than Smith is at his. Maybe that will change in the future. But as of right now, it's entirely true. And the lengths that you're going to make it seem like Smith is just a victim of fate reeks of desperation. I get that you like guy, feel free. But stop making it seem like he's been good. He hasn't. If you were trying to make a case for Dekeyser, I'd say you have an argument. He's been as good as advertised. But Smith hasn't. It's really that simple. I agree. For a quality player. Not for a project. I'm not sure why it's so hard to get this point across.

Agreed. But that doesn't take away from the fact that Tatar just did something REALLY impressive. To move him now for a project defenseman would be silly. As I said, I'd move him as part of a package for an established player. But not for a guy who's got as many holes in his game as Myers does. Smith doesn't have a higher ceiling. I'm not sure where you got that. Tatar is a Calder Cup MVP and Olympian, who just had a fantastic rookie year. Smith has done nothing of note since not winning the Hobie Baker award in college. Why is his ceiling higher again?

Chara and Pronger could both play defense. Myers is HORRIBLE defensively. He's also not even close to as physical as those guys. God knows how much you like physicality and defensive responsibility. You're mesmerized by his size and think that means we'll be tougher. We won't. He's not a tough guy. He's tall and skinny. And worse, he's got terrible lateral skating. Dudes blow by him. I'd gladly trade Tatar for young Pronger. Younger Pronger was big, strong, tough, defensively responsible, imposing, and chipped some offense. Myers chips in offense...and that is all. They are nothing alike. I'd also trade Tatar for Yandle...or Edler...or Bogosian or anybody who's an established player. But I'm not willing to move him for a project...no matter how tall he is.

You're certainly welcome to like whatever players you want. But there's a huge difference between trading a guy who excelled as a rookie (Tatar) and a guy who struggled as a rookie (Smith). I have never, ever, denied that Smith has potential. I'm not denying it now. But I think it's hugely revisionist to put him in the same boat as Tatar. Being REALLY forgiving and giving Smith extra gold stars for his late season improvements, he was still only pedestrian as a rookie. Tatar, on the other hand, was sixth in rookie scoring behind McKinnon, Palat, Nyquist, Tyler Johnson, and Krug. Not too shabby. Pav's average TOI (as a rookie) was 13:39 with 1:59 of PP time per game. Even strength, he was playing with Brett Hull, who scored 37 goals and 76 points that year. His power play time was also spent feeding legends. Tatar's average TOI was 14:21 per game with 2:17 of PP time per game. The difference of about one additional shift per game when compared to Datyuk. Plus, Tatar didn't play with a hall of famer. Hell, he didn't even play with an all star. He played with Riley Sheahan and Tomas Jurco who combined for about a third of the number of points Hull put up on Datsyuk's wing. You think Tatar might have a few more assists if he was passing to Brett Hull? His rookie season was more impressive. If you didn't already know that the first guy was Datsyuk, you'd surely agree.

Everyone here is aware that Tatar just had a better rookie season than Datsyuk right? He's also about 200% more gritty than the majority of our team. How on earth is everybody so willing to trade him away for a project defenseman. Because that's what Myers is, lest we forget. A project. Just like the countless other projects we've acquired over the last five years which haven't panned out. I, for one, am not willing to move a guy who just scored 39 points buried on our third line (with rookie linemates) for a guy that Buffalo fans affectionately nicknamed "The Gentle Giant". Trade for someone better, or don't trade. I prefer the latter actually. No more shortcuts. That's what got us into this mess.

Anybody willing to trade ANY of our good forwards for Tyler Myers will be very disappointed in a couple of years when these guys are regularly putting up 50 pts. and Myers is still regularly being a huge pud. Just say no! If this guy were a franchise defenseman then Buffalo would be trying to lock him up long term, not trade him. I can't stress enough what a bad idea it would be to trade any of our young forwards for this guy. We'll overpay on the trade, we'll overpay on the salary, and we'll be left standing with a guy who, if he were 6'1 and 205 lbs., nobody would consider trading this much for.

Words can't describe how much I needed this today. Shout out to the universe for hooking a guy up in a time of need. http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/24604149/report-flyers-captain-claude-giroux-arrested-in-ottawa "Although few details were immediately available, a source said Giroux was arrested for repeatedly grabbing the buttocks of a male police officer. Alcohol is believed to have been involved. The incident occurred at a bar in the Byward Market the source said. Ottawa Police have refused any comment on the incident. Police said they cannot comment unless charges are laid, but several sources did confirm to the Sun Giroux spent the night in jail."