kipwinger

I generally agree with you guys as far as trade values, but honestly, did anyone think Kenny would give up Jarnkrok and a 2nd for David Legwand on an expiring contract, or a 1st for Kyle Quincey? You really can't blame people for having strange views on trades, it's not like trading has been done competently in Detroit in a while. People don't really have much to base their opinions on.

Aha, the old eyeball test. So your opinion is based on how you think the team ought to be coached, and is almost exclusively predicated on Babcock (widely considered one of the league's top coaches) being wrong about Smith's abilities? Right. Which is more likely? One of the best coaches in the league wildly misuses a valuable player to the detriment of the team. Or, a mediocre player who a good coach doesn't use in important situations is, nevertheless, overrated by fans. Also, only one of Tatar and Smith is paid to play defense well. It'll be the one with the "D" next to his name on the roster. The other is paid to be a 185 lb. scoring winger...which he does...well.

Wait, Tatar's 19 goals and 39 points (as a rookie) are something to scoff at because it's been done before, but Smith's 19 pts. and bad defense are somehow "better" and therefore more rare? Lol. Also, Kronwall didn't play his best defense when paired with Smith. He had his highest Corsi rating. Those aren't the same things.

Based on what? What has he accomplished that is anything like a rookie forward coming in and scoring 39 points? I don't expect Smith to have THE SAME accomplishments, that's dumb. But if he was as good, I'd expect him to have EQUIVALENT accomplishments, which he doesn't. Also, what does he bring that we need? He's an offensive defenseman who doesn't play defense and doesn't score many points. He had fewer hits than any defenseman other than Kindl, and he doesn't play special teams. You keep saying that he brings so much, or that he's better than Tatar. Tell me what he did and what he brings to the team. I'm dying to know.

Nobody is saying that Tatar can never be traded or that we can't live without him. I'm saying if you're going to trade a player who has been as good as Tatar, you should try to get a return greater than a guy who just scored fewer points than Danny Dekeyser, with more ice time, while playing a tenth the defense. Can everyone at least recognize that nobody is saying Tatar is untouchable? I'm saying that Tatar is really valuable as a secondary scorer on a team that lacks offense. As such, I would need a much bigger return on him than Tyler Myers, a guy who has been consistently underwhelming for most of his career. We need Tatar's offense more than we need a project defenseman. Is that clear? If you're going to trade Tatar (which I'm theoretically ok with) please do it for someone who's value to the team is tangible and not predicated on a bunch of "ifs".

It's not a matter of opinion. Smith has not done anything of note in his professional career. And you can't use their respective positions as a way of shirking that fact. That's like saying Datsyuk and Kronwall can't be compared because they don't play the same position. Datsyuk is better at his position than Kronwall is at his. Likewise, Tatar is better at his position than Smith is at his. Maybe that will change in the future. But as of right now, it's entirely true. And the lengths that you're going to make it seem like Smith is just a victim of fate reeks of desperation. I get that you like guy, feel free. But stop making it seem like he's been good. He hasn't. If you were trying to make a case for Dekeyser, I'd say you have an argument. He's been as good as advertised. But Smith hasn't. It's really that simple. I agree. For a quality player. Not for a project. I'm not sure why it's so hard to get this point across.

Agreed. But that doesn't take away from the fact that Tatar just did something REALLY impressive. To move him now for a project defenseman would be silly. As I said, I'd move him as part of a package for an established player. But not for a guy who's got as many holes in his game as Myers does. Smith doesn't have a higher ceiling. I'm not sure where you got that. Tatar is a Calder Cup MVP and Olympian, who just had a fantastic rookie year. Smith has done nothing of note since not winning the Hobie Baker award in college. Why is his ceiling higher again?

Chara and Pronger could both play defense. Myers is HORRIBLE defensively. He's also not even close to as physical as those guys. God knows how much you like physicality and defensive responsibility. You're mesmerized by his size and think that means we'll be tougher. We won't. He's not a tough guy. He's tall and skinny. And worse, he's got terrible lateral skating. Dudes blow by him. I'd gladly trade Tatar for young Pronger. Younger Pronger was big, strong, tough, defensively responsible, imposing, and chipped some offense. Myers chips in offense...and that is all. They are nothing alike. I'd also trade Tatar for Yandle...or Edler...or Bogosian or anybody who's an established player. But I'm not willing to move him for a project...no matter how tall he is.

You're certainly welcome to like whatever players you want. But there's a huge difference between trading a guy who excelled as a rookie (Tatar) and a guy who struggled as a rookie (Smith). I have never, ever, denied that Smith has potential. I'm not denying it now. But I think it's hugely revisionist to put him in the same boat as Tatar. Being REALLY forgiving and giving Smith extra gold stars for his late season improvements, he was still only pedestrian as a rookie. Tatar, on the other hand, was sixth in rookie scoring behind McKinnon, Palat, Nyquist, Tyler Johnson, and Krug. Not too shabby. Pav's average TOI (as a rookie) was 13:39 with 1:59 of PP time per game. Even strength, he was playing with Brett Hull, who scored 37 goals and 76 points that year. His power play time was also spent feeding legends. Tatar's average TOI was 14:21 per game with 2:17 of PP time per game. The difference of about one additional shift per game when compared to Datyuk. Plus, Tatar didn't play with a hall of famer. Hell, he didn't even play with an all star. He played with Riley Sheahan and Tomas Jurco who combined for about a third of the number of points Hull put up on Datsyuk's wing. You think Tatar might have a few more assists if he was passing to Brett Hull? His rookie season was more impressive. If you didn't already know that the first guy was Datsyuk, you'd surely agree.

Everyone here is aware that Tatar just had a better rookie season than Datsyuk right? He's also about 200% more gritty than the majority of our team. How on earth is everybody so willing to trade him away for a project defenseman. Because that's what Myers is, lest we forget. A project. Just like the countless other projects we've acquired over the last five years which haven't panned out. I, for one, am not willing to move a guy who just scored 39 points buried on our third line (with rookie linemates) for a guy that Buffalo fans affectionately nicknamed "The Gentle Giant". Trade for someone better, or don't trade. I prefer the latter actually. No more shortcuts. That's what got us into this mess.

Anybody willing to trade ANY of our good forwards for Tyler Myers will be very disappointed in a couple of years when these guys are regularly putting up 50 pts. and Myers is still regularly being a huge pud. Just say no! If this guy were a franchise defenseman then Buffalo would be trying to lock him up long term, not trade him. I can't stress enough what a bad idea it would be to trade any of our young forwards for this guy. We'll overpay on the trade, we'll overpay on the salary, and we'll be left standing with a guy who, if he were 6'1 and 205 lbs., nobody would consider trading this much for.

Words can't describe how much I needed this today. Shout out to the universe for hooking a guy up in a time of need. http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/24604149/report-flyers-captain-claude-giroux-arrested-in-ottawa "Although few details were immediately available, a source said Giroux was arrested for repeatedly grabbing the buttocks of a male police officer. Alcohol is believed to have been involved. The incident occurred at a bar in the Byward Market the source said. Ottawa Police have refused any comment on the incident. Police said they cannot comment unless charges are laid, but several sources did confirm to the Sun Giroux spent the night in jail."

If you hate Helen St. James as much as I do, do yourself a favor and read this. It takes hackery to an entirely new level. If I'm understanding this correctly, especially the last paragraph, her argument seems to be, "Wings fans shouldn't be upset about free agency because this year FAs had reasons to go elsewhere". Which, apparently, is totally different than every other year when free agents just sign willy nilly. Daniel Alfredsson leaves Ottawa after 17 years and it's "time for a change of scenery", but Dan Boyle signs with NYR and it's "couldn't be avoided, he and Martin St. Louis played together ten years ago". She actually suggested that Niskanen signed in Washington because his former coach now coaches there. As if that's special. If that's all it takes to woo FAs can we hurry up and hire some former assistant coaches? http://www.freep.com/article/20140703/SPORTS05/307030047/detroit-red-wings-optimism

Tatar just had a better rookie season than Datsyuk did, on a much worse team. I'm not sure what else he's got to prove for you to think he's a future top six player. As far as your asking price for Green. I don't think Washington would even ask that with a straight face. Holland's the king of making moves from a position of weakness, but even then, he's insane. He gave a prospect and a pic for a top six center in Legwand and that was universally considered an overpayment. Asking for a future top six forward in return for a guy on an expiring contract, who isn't a first pair defender, isn't happening. I can't think of even a single example.

You maybe be right, I can't really say. What I can say is that he'll probably only get better from his already impressive rookie year, and that he's NOTHING like Helm or Abby. His first year in the league is already miles better than anything those two have put together. I'd trade either of those guys in a heartbeat. A guy that can score me 20+ goals and it tenacious and gritty? Not so much.

A week ago he probably could have traded for O'Reilly and not had to go to all that effort. He doesn't want to be there, and had the return been cheaper than his contract Colorado would likely have been able to keep Paul Stastny. But Holland's player acquisition skills, such as they are, don't allow him to make those sorts of shrewd business moves. Also, you're crazy if you'd trade Tatar over Nyquist. He's harder to play against than Nyquist by a mile. Everybody is always clamoring for Detroit to get tougher, and then when confronted by two guys who are roughly equal in talent they want to keep the softer one because he's flashier. Stick Nyquist on the third line and let his ultra lucky shooting percentage come back to earth and they probably produce the same amount of points too.

Aha. Well surely we can all agree that it's still funny regardless of whether Crosby's involved.

A trade for an injury prone, one dimensional, offensive defenseman in the last year of an overpriced contract is going to require a young, future top six, roster player in return? In what universe?

Why would that be better? Dude, don't get me wrong, I love Tatar as much as the next guy. But staying up late drinking in your apartment is not even in the same ballpark as getting drunk and punching a cab driver or going to a college party in a different state, at a school you didn't go to. If I'm drafting one hockey player for my beer olympics team, it's Kane, hands down. One a real note for one second. Just imagine how good Patrick Kane would be if he tried and/or gave a damn.

It's a long post, so I bolded the things I agree with, and italicized the things I don't. My main counterpoints are as follows: 1) The fact that we're not having losing seasons is not a good reason to avoid making smart personnel moves. Pittsburgh fired their GM and coach after 4 or 5 early playoff exits. We pat ours on the back and tell them they did a good job because at least they weren't as bad as Buffalo 2) Our standards as an organization should be higher than "competing in a weak conference". Holland used to say he wanted to challenge for the cup every year. Now he's content to scrape into the playoffs and "see what happens. 3) It's not either/or when it comes to letting kids play vs. acquiring pieces we need. We've got more kids than spots. Some of them can be used to acquire players that help us now. We can't give all of Quellet, Sproul, Marchenko, Backman, and Jenson spots. Not while keeping Knonwall, Ericsson, Smith, and Dekeyser. Likewise there's probably not enough room for all of Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Pulkkinen, Sheahan, Mantha with the roster we have. And IF you keep all those guys then there's definitely not room for all of Helm, Glendening, Miller, Abby. And all of that is assuming that Kindl is traded, Lashoff is traded, Andersson is traded. Oh, and before the ill advised Quincey signing we also had about 14 million in cap space to do it. Fact is, we've got more than enough assets to make our team competitive now without mortgaging the organization's future. So why not do it?

If recent history is any indication we'll get butchered by a better team in rounds one or two. That's not going to change with a bad defense, an average goalie, and a bunch of kids who are improving just as fast as our core players are declining. And it's most definitely not going to change if Ken Holland, and his apologists, have an endless list of excuses for not making the team better. Every other team in the league has young talent playing for it too. If our strategy is to "just let the kids develop" without doing anything else, how are we any better off than any other team who's letting their young players improve as well? You think Boston and Pittsburgh don't have young guys who are getting better too?

Dude, I agree with your general point which seems to be "don't freak out because we've still got some reasons to be optimistic" but I think you're underselling just how good some of these guys are in order to make that point. Niskanen is worth every penny of 5.75 million. Even if he never improves his point production (and he probably will), you're still getting a 27 year old defenseman who can give you 40 pts., run a powerplay, log big minutes, AND is actually good at playing defense for under six million. Ditto for Ehrhoff (except the age part). These are VERY good players for their salaries. Are they Doughty or Subban? No. Do they get paid to be? Nope. Boyle, Stralman, and Robidas are a different story and we should be glad we didn't over commit to them. But you do have to wonder what's up with Holland's concept of value if Quincey is worth 4.25 mil for two years, Boyle is worth 5.5 mil for two years, and Niskanen is worth 5.5 for seven years.

I'm so tired of this, "if we weren't injured" argument. Datsyuk and Zetterberg weren't injured when we lost in the first round to San Jose in 2010. They weren't injured when we lost in the second round to San Jose in 2011. They weren't injured when we got embarrassed by Nashville in 2012. They weren't injured when we blew a 3 games to 1 lead against Chicago a year ago. And they very likely weren't the only people playing injured in this year's mauling by Boston. Another thing, people play hurt in the playoffs all the time. Bergeron was nearly dead a year ago and Boston had no trouble making it to the finals. Anybody that thinks a healthy Pavel or Hank change the outcome of our series isn't looking at recent history, and isn't taking into account the fact that injuries don't only happen to Detroit. We lose because our "elite" players aren't good enough anymore. Our up and comers aren't good enough yet. And everybody else is just average.

I know him! It's Ziggerwaggelitus and Figglywigbandersnatch's son. What a lovely family. I have to remember to send them a Christmas card this year.

Favorite post of the day for both style and substance. +100 and the keys to the city for you.