kipwinger

I'd like them both. Wiz's shot on the other side of our PP would be lethal.

If Abby could score 50 pts. I'd pay him 5.8 million too.

Wisniewski had more points this year than anybody on our team. He had more Powerplay points than 2/3 of our team had total points. I'd take him. Plus, it's not like being injury proneness disqualifies you from being a Red Wing. If that were the case we'd need to trade of about 99% of our roster.

Well to be really honest, we're not getting either Niskanen or Kesler so it really doesn't matter. I just wanted to make sure we didn't understate how much they'd help our team return to competitiveness. We'll probably get Alfie and Robidas instead. So I don't know why I care.

Lol. You're changing your tune. Previously you said we'd be worse off with Kesler and Niskanen than Smith and Helm. I'm not going to argue about Smith's potential, everybody knows how I feel about that. But at the very least it's clear that right now, at their respective levels of development, Smith is not better than Niskanen. At all. Likewise, I wouldn't argue that it would always be better to have BOTH Kesler and Helm. But that's not what you said. You insinuated that we'd be worse because Helm is one of our best defensive forwards. But we'd be replacing him with one of the best defensive forwards in the league. You're entitled to your opinion. Obviously. But if we swapped Smith and Helm for Niskanen and Kesler we'd be a better team overnight. And we'd stay a better team for the forseeable future barring some freakish developmental jumps from Smith and Helm that (so far in their careers) they've not shown they were capable of. For instance, let Smith score 20 NHL points in one season before we anoint him the next big puck mover. Niskanen did that and more as a 20 year old rookie.

It seems like you're saying we'd be worse by swapping a "potential top four" in Smith for a legitimate top four in Niskanen (who's demonstrably better offensively and defensively than Smith), and "one of our best defensive forwards" in Helm for a Selke winner. Of course we'd be better with Kesler and Niskanen. If there's even a doubt about that then I have no idea what to say to you.

Nikitin is a lot like Ladislav Smid or Ericsson. He's not going to make an impression on the scoreboard, but he that's not what he's there for. It's an overpayment, but not a huge one for a 6'4 230 lb. stay at home d-man who can shut down forward and munch minutes.

His points per game are nearly identical to Dustin Brown's, and he brings all the same intangibles, for the same contract. I don't think this is a bad deal at all. It's not a steal for sure, but I think only the Red Wings and Red Wings fans believe each and every contract negotiation should end in the teams' favor.

Dude, put him on a good team in diminished role and see if he doesn't excel. Absolutely nobody will work harder to finally win a Cup than Luc Robitaille...er...Alfie. My mistake. I keep thinking Alfie is Luc Robitaille. He's not.

Terminator 2 as well. WAY better than the original.

Well, to be fair Shea Weber didn't even project to be Shea Weber when he has drafted. Nor did Subban, Chara, or Keith. The only first rate d-men I'm aware of that were so highly thought of were Karlsson, Pietrangelo, and Doughty. Brad Stuart (god love him) was a third overall pick after all. And while I'm a big Stuart fan, I'd have been a little irritated had I spent a 3rd overall on him. In general I always have more faith in "can't miss" forwards than I do in defensemen. It just seems that the developmental arch for d-men is too hard to predict with confidence.

Thornton's got better playoff numbers than Datsyuk. 100 pts. in 132 games to Datsyuk's 108 pts. in 145 games. The "Thornton's a choker" in the playoffs narrative is overblown. Still don't want him, but not for that reason.

Also agreed. Although I'd caution anyone against thinking would be likely on our team. I'd be amazed if he put up 50 pts. with our anemic offense. But sure, on the right team, with the right roster, and the right system, vets can be a big help. For those of us (like me) who are skeptical of signing more aging vets, I think the argument is that we're not the right team. Teams full of high end talent in their primes can add around the edges with aging vets. A team full of guys who are aging and injury prone probably shouldn't (is my argument).

Fair enough. But you're being dismissive. It's just as wrong to suggest age doesn't matter at all as to suggest that it's the only thing that matters. Surely you'd agree that there is some downside to exclusively targeting past their prime vets, no?

Is "The View" the one with totally hot Lisa Ling, or is it the one with totally unhot Rosie O'Donnell?

Where are you getting the information that Holland pushed hard? According to reports the two best offers where from Anaheim and Pittsburgh, one centered on a young defensemen (Vantonen) and one center on a third line center (Sutter). Normally I don't call for links, but I'm going to need to you show some validation that "Holland pushed hard" for Kesler because I followed that story VERY closely and never once heard that Holland had even made an offer.

I don't think anyone is talking about "building from free agency". We draft and develop well and should continue to do so. But I don't think you can argue that trades and/or free agency can be a source of significant parts of championship teams. It's worth noting that Carter, Richards, Gaborik, Williams, B. Richards, Nash, St. Louis, Brassard, and Puliot all played significant parts in their respective teams' cup runs and none were drafted or developed by those teams. I agree that you can't buy success. But I think it's a false dichotomy to suggest that the only choices are A) to draft and develop your own team with minimal additions from outside, or B) buy a team through free agency and pay no attention to drafting and developing. You can do both a little of both with great success. Recently KH has only shown a willingness to make peripheral moves through trade/FA (unless you consider signing a 41 year old on the downswing of his career a significant acquisition). And by his own admission his prospect pool doesn't have the first rate players to replace the ones he's currently losing to old age.

I'm not really shocked that everybody's ok with this. I'm positive that if this were some other 42 year old who scored 49 pts. last year people would be calling for Holland's head. Hell, people were more than happy to see Legwand walk and he scored 51 pts. last year. But it's "Alfie" and so our collective intelligence flies out the window. This all but ensures our forward lines are not noticeably different this year. It also means that no quality free agents come our way (not that we'd have paid for them anyway). Why would anybody who wants to win come to a team that BARELY made the playoffs this year, got roasted in the first round, and then did nothing at all to improve themselves? To play with Dats and Z? Not really sure that has the allure it did five years ago. Meanwhile, rumor has it that both St. Louis and Chicago are in on Kesler. WAY better teams than us are trying to get better and we've standing pat with our fingers crossed, hoping that it's really just bad luck holding us back. It's not.

Who cares about his cap hit? It's not like we'll use the savings to sign anyone better and he'll only be on a one year contract. Give him 10 million dollars for all it matters. What are we worried about saving money for at this point? As long as we've got enough to sign him and some 39 year old right shooting d-man then it really doesn't make a difference.

No worries. We're good. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the subject.

Well I certainly won't argue that.

Further off than you think considering Nyquist will probably never again score 23 goals in 21 games or whatever it was. It's kind of hard to use points per game in Gus' favor this year considering how wildly, freakishly, lucky that streak was. There's literally no really to think that Gus is more the 23 goals in 21 games player, and not the 0 goals in the 18 games before that player.

It means Niskanen will get similar money but longer term. He had the same year as Markov without the track record of success. Why would he make so much more?

Amen Brother!

Good God almighty! That killed him! As god as my witness, he is broken in half! (actual quotes from the Foley v. Undertake Hell in a Cell match)