kipwinger

Or you could sign Niskanen, take the risk, and use those assets on a forward with size, speed, skill, and grit who has already identified your team as being one he'd wave his NTC to come to. Just sayin'.

You keep saying this, what reason do you have to think he'd be a disaster? The kid is already better than all but (maybe) two of our defensemen. It's not like he's an unknown quantity. He's a young d-man just entering his prime, who has played his way onto the top pairing of a good defense, on a very good team. He plays on the PK, PP, and has put up points on two different teams. You know how many defensemen we have who have put up 48 pts. a season (Niskanen's numbers this year)? One...Kronwall (career high 51 pts). You know how many defensemen we have who have put up 35 pts. in a season (Niskanen's second best year)? Two...Kronwall and Quincey. You know how many defensemen we have who have scored more than Niskanen did his rookie year? Two...Kronwall and Quincey. Even if he never improved from his rookie year (which he obviously has) he's still better than every other puck mover on our team not named Kronwall.

Yeah, wouldn't want to marginally overpay for a good young talent (Erhoff, Wisniewski, Niskanen) when there are bargains everywhere you look (Commodore, White, Colaiacovo). We've been down this road before. Just overpay for Niskanen by a million dollars if necessary (5.5 for 5 years) and let him grow into it. Either that or we can A) do nothing to our defense (which seems to be working great so far, ugh) or B) sign some marginal journeyman or aging vet and hope they produce over their heads (which I'm sure will totally work this time too, double ugh).

If you're going to give up the assets necessary to get Joe Pavelski why wouldn't you just go after Kesler instead? In addition to all the thing you mentioned about Pavelski, Kelser's also cheaper, bigger, faster, grittier, better defensively, and would take less to get considering he's demanded a trade. I'm starting to get the feeling the objections you had yesterday were less about his cap, injury proneness, or trade value, and more to do with the fact that you just don't like Ryan Kesler.

I get the sense you don't like Franzen. Why the change of heart?

It's not a matter of giving up on anyone. It's a matter of changing the dynamic of the team because the same old thing just isn't working. Also, Kesler is 29 and has played in 77 or more games 7 out of 10 years in the league, only dipping below that in the lockout year, his rookie year (when he likely didn't dress all 82 games), and one other time about six years ago. He only missed 5 games this year...with a broken finger...suffered in the Olympics. That's a higher rate of games played per season than Datsyuk or Zetterberg, nevermind Helm. It's not like he's Vincent Lecavalier or anything. He's also under contract for two more years at 5 million dollars...so he's not exactly breaking the bank. No matter how you cut it, we're a MUCH better team with Niskanen and Kesler rather than Helm, Smith and a 1st. And you're not giving up the world. One (or all) of Sproul, Ouellet, Marchenko, and Backman projects as high or higher than Smith and Sheahan is probably already better than Helm. Plus, how do you not like the size and speed of a team with Kesler, Sheahan, Jurco, Abby, and Franzen (and in a year or so Mantha). Just written down it's tougher to play against than the team we actually iced for the last five years or so. Everybody always wants to get younger, faster, and harder to play against. Here's how we can do it, and it will only cost Helm, Smith, and a 1st. Hell it may even cost you less (but I'd gladly go this high).

I agree with everything you've said here. And still I make this trade 100 times out of 100. It's a no brainer, for both sides.

So would they. It's Holland I'm not sure about. He's loyal to a fault.

Check out my proposed lineup in the other offseason thread to see exactly what I'd do with the defense. We wouldn't lose a single young d-man either. Spoiler Alert! It involves moving our 1st, Smith, and either Helm or Abby for a hometown guy who wants off his current team and has already identified Detroit as a place he'd waive his no trade clause to go to. The same guy who was nearly had for two packages which weren't as good as the one I just proposed.

Well you definitely don't break up the kid line, so Sheahan stays where he's at. But I don't think there's any reason why Helm couldn't get quality ice time on the fourth line. The grinders did it for years. You don't have to like Drew Miller. Babs does, so he's not going anywhere. If we were to sign a guy like Thornton (which we won't) he'd likely be the 13 forward and be in the press box most nights. That's just the truth of the matter. As for Niskanen...26 pts. as a rookie is not unremarkable, it's pretty impressive (especially since Dallas was horrible back then). He then improved to 35 pts., which is good by any objective measure. His numbers then dipped as his ice time did, and went back up as he earned the ice time back, culminating in a 48 pts breakout season which happens to coincide with his being at an age where defensemen typically have breakout seasons. If Brendan Smith put up 26 pts. in his rookie season people around here would devolve into wild throes of ecstasy considering they're ready to lick his balls after the 19 he managed this season. Again, Niskanen's for read dude.

Get the bottom six playing exactly where they should be and they'll be fine. The kid line was a very good second line this year, so slotted (correctly) as third and they'll be dominant. And a shutdown fourth of Miller-Glendening-Helm/Abby would be very solid as well. Hell, I'm feeling generous...if it would please everyone else, sign a fighter to be your 13th forward. Who really cares anyway?

I'm just trying to be realistic with this one. You can't get Kesler for Smith, Glendening, and a 1st. You just can't. But you really could for Smith, Helm, and a 1st, and I'd do that in a second. He didn't just have one good year. He's had a couple of pretty good years, and then a breakout year with a couple stinkers in the middle. Which is in line with his scouting report which said he was a guy with all the talent who just needed to put it together. Looks like he has considering he's worked he's played his way into 20+ minutes a night on a defense that has Letang, Orpik, Martin, and Scuderi. Kid's for real.

So in the "Offseason Needs" thread I posted my realistic offseason plan, which was to sign Niskanen and promote from within. Here I'm going to post my dream scenario, which actually might not be too off base. Sign Niskanen, and trade our 1st, Helm or Abby (not both), and Smith for Ryan Kesler. We don't need a first, we've already got too many NHL quality prospects, and we can easily handle the loss of Smith and Abby or Helm. No knock on any of those guys, but I love the thought of this Z-Dats-Kesler Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco Miller-Glendening-Helm/Abby Kronwall-Ericsson Niskanen-Dekeyser Marchenko-Quellet/Sproul Note: If that rookie third pair was shaky you can always trade for a veteran third pair stay at home guy with any of the 2 million quality prospects we've got. Double Note: This package for Kesler is better than both Pittsburgh and Anaheim's packages which reportedly "nearly landed" him at the deadline. It should work. If not, add some combination of Kidl, Andersson, Bachman, Pulkkinen, Callahan, or Ferraro until it does.

You mean, aside from the one you've got chilling on our third pair below Brendan Smith on the depth chart? lol. How did Ericsson being injured get him demoted to the third pair? He went from our most reliable defensive defenseman to Brain Lashoff because of one signing? Edit: Also, even if we sign Niskanen he wouldn't play on the top pair with Kronwall, since they're pretty much the EXACT same type of player, good offensively and adequate defensively. They're also both undersized for their position. You're far more likely to see Kronall with Ericsson, and Niskanen with Dekeyser. That would make all Brendan's supporters upset, but out of the five he is CLEARLY the fifth best, so he'd be right where he needed to be.

St. Louis was sixth in the league in goals per games. Tarasenko, Oshie, Steen, Backes, Schwartz, all had more than 20 goals per. They had so much scoring they traded Chris Stewart (15 goals this year and former 30 goal scorer) away without batting an eye. We had one guy score more than 20, and you're proposing we trade the only other guy who was close. They aren't going to trade one of the best young defensemen in the league for Tatar and scrubs. They don't need his offense. We, on the other hand, do need it.

Anyone who's watched the playoffs and is willing to pick up Letang's contract has no business being an NHL General Manager. But I'm sure he'll try.

It'll never work, Holmgren only makes shockingly poor decisions when 30 goal forwards are involved (Richards, Carter, Lecavalier, Van Riemsdyk). Simmonds has only ever had 29. To think, one more goal and Holmgren would probably have shipped him to Detroit for Daniel Alfredsson's youth.

I share you concern, but he's not going anywhere and at least Dats would have Zetterberg so it's not like he wouldn't have a quality winger. I don't love Abby up there, but I don't see any realistic alternative either. Plus, you can always make a trade later.

I definitely agree with some of the things you've said. For instance, Holland is notoriously stingy when it comes time to make offers to free agents (remember Wisniewski's 'market value' comment). But I don't think his moves have been as bad as people think. Hindsight has shown that some of them haven't worked out, but who could have known at the time. For instance, it's easy to say that he doesn't attract top flight FA's, but Weiss and Alfie were both at the top of their respective FA cohorts. Likewise, the Quincey move is generally considered bad. But prior to coming back he'd been playing top four minutes and scoring around 30 pts. a season. And he was young and still had development potential. Easily worth a first at the time. With Legwand I'd generally agree we overpaid, but Poile had us over a barrel and we knew it. Even then, we were still getting a very good two way center capable of putting up good numbers. It's mindblogging how he was used, but that's not his fault. Tootoo? Same deal as Legwand. They both just did what they do, no knock on their game. The two worst things that Holland did recently were bring back Cleary and give Sammy a No Trade Clause. The first is defensible because Babs and the team leadership intervened on Cleary's behalf. The NTC is indefensible and was just a plain bad move. Neither of them, it turns out, actually impacted the team negatively all that much, though it maybe have impacted the Illitch's pocketbook (hard to feel bad for them considering they haven't paid taxes in about ten years lol). Very far considering he has no systems training and Babs runs one of the most demanding systems in the league. This kid has zero chance of making the team next season. Letting him learn the system in GR from Blashill is the right call, just not the sexy one.

I would be legitimately happy if Holland did nothing else but sign Niskanen and let all the obvious free agents walk. You can always fill needs at the deadline, but I'd be perfectly happy going into next season with... Z-Dats-Abby Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco Miller-Helm-Glendening Kronwall-Ericsson Niskenen-Dekeyser Smith-Quellet Sproul/Marchenko Edit: Obviously the means trading Andersson, Kindl, and Lashoff for whatever you can get (not roster players).

Dang. Why so acrimonious man? Everything alright at home? And probably right out of Kenny's price range as well. Not that we couldn't afford it mind you...

Well I certainly agree with the second half of your post. But I'm actually a Holland fan. That doesn't mean I don't think he makes mistakes from time to time, he does, but usually his mistakes don't end up crippling the team in any serious way. Think of all his big "mistakes" e.g. Sammy, Tootoo, Quincey, bringing Cleary back, and then think about other people's big mistakes and you immediately feel better. He could have signed David Clarkson to a 5.2 million dollar contract for 7 years, given Ryane Clowe 4.8 million for 5 years despite his history of concussions, or traded away Mike Richards and Jeff Carter and Sergei Bobrovsky and James Van Riemsdyk for Wayne Simmonds/Jakub Voracek/ the Schenn brothers and some picks. In the end, Holland's really done a pretty good job.

I'm not going to try and talk you into liking Holland, you seem pretty dead set against it. But those were close games (on the scoreboard). Only problem is that despite their closeness, we had no realistic shot at winning any of them.

Dabura, your posts are too long for me to respond to all your points. So, a couple of things... Niskanen having a career year in a contract year worries me too, but in addition to coinciding with a contract season his explosion also coincides with the average trajectory for defenseman development, as well as the Pens losing their top guy and giving Niskanen the opportunity to shine. But again, dually noted on the correlation. If they Pens can sign him after all the money they've spent the last couple of years I'll be blown away. The whole post about fetishizing the streak was right on. Dream big with the Simmonds thing. Ain't happening.

Just an observation... I think the reason you're finding such antipathy to your ideas is because many of your posts have been matadorish and confrontational. I assure you, we're all perfectly reasonable people who would gladly hear what you've got to say and respectfully debate with you, provided you would stop being so insulting during the exchange.