kipwinger

That's true, I did get a little carried away with the hypotheticals here. I'm just super frustrated that nothing is being done to improve this team right now. Better to fantasize I guess.

The other thing I'd be looking for is a guy who's trending upward, but who isn't established yet. A guy like Neal was for Dallas. If you're willing to part with a quality piece you can usually get guys like this and hopefully they were scouted well enough that they can really flourish in your system. Obviously you need to have quality scouts (which we supposedly do) but also you wouldn't need to give up nearly as much as an established guy. Following this line of though, one guy I've been interested in is Mikkel Boedker from Phoenix. He's defensively responsible, SUPER fast, young, and has pretty good size (6ft. 210 lbs.), and plays for a team that's not likely to push for a playoff spot. He's having a breakout year this year after moderate success in the past. This is the kind of under the radar move that could pay off huge in the future if the kid continues to develop upward. Plus, you certainly wouldn't need to give Nyquist and a 1st for him. I don't know if this guy's the answer, but it's the kind of move I'd be looking at if I were Holland. Let everyone else battle it out for E. Kane, Vanek, Moulson, etc. and we make a solid cap savy move that helps now and in the future.

It wouldn't likely be a one for one trade. Nyquist + 1st, or something like that.

That's certainly PART of the issue, and admittedly it's not insignificant. But injuries have given everyone on this forum the youth movement that they wanted, and you see how Babs uses them. That shouldn't be ignored or downplayed any more than Holland's dumb a** personnel moves of the last couple years. Based on his use of them so far, it's pretty obvious that according to Babs the depth chart is something like this: Top End Guys: Dats, Z, Kronwall, Franzen, Alfie, Ericsson "Reliable Vets": Cleary, Bert, Quincey, Miller, Eaves, Abby, Helm Responsible Youth: Nyquist, Glendening, Andersson, "Irresponsible" Youth: Tatar, Kindl, Smith New Wave Youth: Jurco, Sheahan Lastly: Sammy What makes anybody think that Babs is just pining for a youth movement. Cut the dead wood and guys like Glendening, Andersson, and Nyquist get more ice time. Not the guys who are actually creating momentum for us.

Not necessarily true. Bobby Ryan was traded for a guy with Nyquist-like NHL numbers, a boom or bust prospect (like Frk for us), and a first. There are a ton of variables at play in the trade market, but Nyquist and a 1st would definitely be a really good starting point (as I said before) for a quality trade.

Agreed 3000%

Dude, you always say this and it's getting old. Because one could easily argue that if you want to watch people get punched so much why don't you go watch boxing or MMA. I'm not here to try and convince you that fighting is dumb, or bad, or whatever. It wouldn't work even if I tried. But please stop with the "if you don't like it don't watch" argument, because it's not a very good one and is basically the adult equivalent of taking your ball and going home.

Yeah, but you can't simply say "a guy's up and playing well in the NHL and therefore don't trade him". If you never traded a guy who was playing well, you'd never get anything of value. You have to consider the possibility of trading a Nyquist, Tatar, Smith, Sheahan, Jurco (one of them, not multiple) if you want something of value. Nobody is going to give you a Wheeler, Ladd, Kane, etc. for unproven potential. You need to include guys that have shown they can play well in the NHL and then sweeten the pot with picks or prospects. Which begs the question, "if a guy is playing well in the NHL then why trade him"? Which is the Ken Holland school of thought. You trade him because the guy you get back fills a need better, or because you're bleeding prospects and don't have room for them all, or the upside on the return is greater than what's going out. There's a ton of reasons to part with quality talent.

I don't think it would land us Wheeler, but it would be a good starting point. Add a decent prospect, Pulkkinen or Jarnkrok and that might do it. Then again, I don't know if Winnipeg is looking for offense or defense. If they wanted defense I'd do Smith, 1st, and Marcheko for Wheeler, but that's just me.

I mean, I REALLY like Jurco. Especially in combination with Sheahan, but I'd entertain it. But I'd need a BIG return to move Jurco AND a guy like Nyquist or Smith. I look at it this way, the Sens got Ryan for a package which was essentially Ottawa's versions of Nyquist, Frk, and a 1st. I don't think we need anyone as good as Ryan, so a combination of Nyquist and a 1st, or Smith and a 1st should get us the return we need.

Yeah, I agree. I keep (foolishly) hoping to wake up and hop online and see the headline "Red Wings trade for..." but to no avail. Honestly, there are a ton of things wrong with this team right now, but one of the biggest is our GM's stubborn refusal to make any moves whatsoever. There's not a lot you can do with the dead weight, but given how bad we're playing you have to at least entertain the idea of moving some young pieces for things we need. If I'm Holland I put the word out that our 1st, Nyquist, Smith, and any prospects not named Mantha or Sproul are moveable (in some combination) for a top six winger with size. Just to see what kind of offers we'd get.

Well Schenn was Toronto's version of Smith, and while I would gladly move Smith for a guy like JVR imagine how apes*** everyone around here would go...well until they saw him play anyway.

And to think, Philly traded him for Schenn because they weren't willing to wait out a concussion. The Flyers have to be one of the poorest run franchises in the league. The only thing that keeps Holmgren from being named amongst all the other worst GMs in the league has been the amount of money they've spent and the two buyouts that saved them from the cap hell that Bryzgalov and Briere had them in.

That's because none of the Canadian Olympians play for the Red Wings. I keed, I keed.

I love JVR, but don't see him going anywhere. Although, the Maple Leafs have traditionally been known for doing impossibly stupid things so maybe. Anyway, JVR is the next Jeff Carter and it's exactly that type of guy that the Wings could use. I'd move Nyquist in a second for a guy like that.

The point of my saying to trade Nyquist was not to say that he's a bad player, he's not. But contrary to what most of LGW believes, you can't get a top six winger for Cleary, Kindl, and a 3rd. You need to give up something valuable. Nyquist has value, he's good, but not what we really need right now. The margin of victory for the Red Wings does not rest on Nyquist's defensive upside (I don't see that he's particularly good at it right now) or assist totals. We need someone with 25-30 goal potential and size...Nyquist and a 1st would be the starting price for a piece like that.

It's not really surprising that Z had a bad game last night. He's one of only two offensive threats on our team right now, and we were playing one of the three best defensive teams in hockey. I imagine it's REALLY hard to play well with David Backes draped all over you for 60 minutes.

Kocur played for the Wings during two different spans. He was on the team between 85-91 and then came back.

I don't like Nyquist in the top six. He's not producing and I don't think he's ready physically to play against the league's top forwards. When (if) guys get healthy I'd like to see him dropped down the depth chart, or preferably packaged with our first for a winger with some size for the top six.

He didn't get fined for starting his goons. He got fined because his goons made no attempt to play the puck off the opening faceoff and were clearly instructed to do what they did. You can keep saying "Hartley can start who he wants" and nobody will disagree because he can, but you shouldn't confuse that with the reason he got suspended. Here's the league's quote on Hartley's fine... "We are holding Mr. Hartley responsible for the actions of Flames' right wing Westgarth, who took the game's opening faceoff and attempted to instigate a premeditated fight with an unwilling opponent -- the Canucks' Kevin Bieksa."

I don't really think it's fair to say that Holland hates fighting. Over the years he's usually had a guy or two who fought on the roster. Downey, May, McCarty, Tootoo, Drake, Avery were all on the roster when Holland was GM. But he doesn't coach the team, if Babs doesn't play them, what are you going to do?

I see what you did there. Totally out of left field. You never turn every single conversation into a pedantic rant about Cleary, Bert, Sammy, or Quincey that we all implicitly agree with. Bravo!

Well I definitely agree with you there. I really wasn't impressed with his one game call up last year, but he's made HUGE strides since then. He's a total boss now. Very good defensively. Kudos to him.

I was the one that said I don't like it when guys move from their established positions. I know that guys CAN do it, but I don't prefer it. Franzen and Zetterberg are both better as wingers than centers and their best seasons have been on the wing, and Sheahan has been a stud so far at center so I don't understand why you'd move him to the wing. The only guy it seems to work for is Abby, and even then, I'm not sure he's any better as a wing than as a center. But I should say, it's not that it's impossible for guys to do it. There are talented players all over the league who "could" change positions, but if they've shown that they're effective in one role then barring injuries I don't see why you'd move them to a position where they've been less effective. Anyway, it's all academic because that's how Babs rolls and there's no changing it, so it is what it is.

Missed the first two periods, anybody want to fill me in on how we look...hopefully without devolving into a "Sammy, Clearly, Bert, Quincey" tirade.