kipwinger

Option 3: The only guy on our list that the team from last year would miss is Dekeyser. Everyone else either didn't play, didn't play much, or can be replaced by someone better in the pipeline.

Again, I wasn't trying to turn this thread into a "to trade or not to trade" but rather a "Nyquist vs. Tatar" if forced to trade, as the title suggests. I think we can all agree that in a perfect world we'd keep all our quality prospects and acquire every good free agent too. But it doesn't work that way. Sometimes you have to give to get and the point of this thread is that if you had to give one or the other, who would you pick, and why.

Dude if you're trying to argue that goalie equipment changed more in the last twenty years than it did in the twenty before that you're insane. You can't make the argument. Visual evidence abounds. Try as you might, you can't blame the increase in goalie equipment size on Bettman. It was a trend that was happening long before he came around. If you want, I'll look up some more goalies from 1973 but I'm fairly sure we all know how that's going to end. Give it up, Bettman didn't increase goalie pad size...it was already happening.

Oh here we go again. Here's three pictures, one from a goalie today (2013), the next from a goalie the year before Bettman took over (1992), and one from twenty years before that (1972). To me it seems like the size of goalie equipment has changed less in the last twenty years than it did in the twenty before that. So I'm guessing this argument of yours is simply another attempt to blame Gary Bettman for something that you don't happen to like, whether he's at fault or not.

Haha, I wondered why you posted that one twice. The thing I like about Tatar over Nyquist is that he seems more tenacious. He's always attacking the net. I worry that Nyquist is a little to passive in his overall approach, which is good for a playmaker, but not so great for a goal scorer. And I think that we need more goal scorers on this team.

Fair enough, I can respect that. I think we both agree though that it would have to be someone with that kind of talent level.

The thing I like about Yandle is that he's a top flight puck mover, signed to a reasonable contract for a few more years. You'd have him well through his prime, and by the time his contract is up your young d-men would be coming into their own. Let him walk after the contract, but realistically it's going to take any of Backman, Sproul, Ouellet, at least three years to develop fully (best case scenario) and you'd have Yandle there to act as a bridge during that time.

Ideally I'd trade them to a team looking to move some salary out, and even more ideally it would be for a young scorer or top pairing defenseman. Yandle or Bobby Ryan come to mind. I don't know if either are available, but they've been rumored to have been on the block in the past and even recently as well. Again, obviously rumors but that's what I'd be looking for. Bobby would score like gangbusters on our top line and would allow us to slot Franzen against second pairing d-men, thus exploiting that mismatch. And Yandle would seriously help our transition game which looked lackluster this year. I really think we need someone that can help transition from defense to offense a little more effectively. Those are just two names, but their could be more if I really dug into it.

I can certainly agree with this, however I guess the reason I'm suggesting it's redundant is because I think we need a more balanced approach to our scoring lines. In general I like the shooter-playmaker-net front scrapper dynamic. So it's possible that you could have one of each on the top three lines and pair them with the appropriate playmakers and thumpers, but given the way Detroit tends to start youngsters out on the third line, I'd expect two of the three are likely to be on the third line with Helm or Andersson next season, which is redundant. For sure, I guess I was implying that from the start but didn't explicitly say so. I certainly wouldn't trade them just for the sake of doing so, and it should be noted that Niyo wasn't suggesting that either.

I agree, and I'm not even saying that was their thought process when hiring Torts. I guess I"m more suggesting that the best case scenario for Vancouver is the situation I mentioned previously. Worst case it's a huge failure. Either way I don't really care, but I've always thought that Vancouver would perform a little better with a more hard nosed coach. Torts fits that bill, in spite of his obvious shortcomings.

It actually might be what this team needs. They've got all the skill in the world, but little toughness, and are chronic under achievers. On a short term basis Torts might be able to light a fire under these guys. I don't think it will work for them long term, but he could do like Ken Hitchcock did with St. Louis and get them playing up to their talent level for a couple years.

Show of hands, how many people who are interested in Briere are the same people who wanted nothing to do with Weiss over in the other thread because he was too small to play center for our team going forward? I'm not going to bother checking, but there's got to be some. Anyway, no thanks on Briere. He's had a great career and all, and he's got a lot of moxy, but I like center's who play defense. For that matter, so do the coaches and management. Which is why we have the system we do, and why Danny Briere won't be donning the Winged Wheel in this lifetime.

All joking aside, he actually won me over (or wore me down) on the Emmerton topic. Obviously the guy isn't a second or third line center in the NHL, and obviously he's not going to win a scoring title. But he kills penalties, is defensively responsible, can skate on the forecheck, and even finishes his hits for the most part. He's a completely serviceable NHL fourth line center and on a team with a cap crunch (perhaps us) he's a real asset given how little he's going to cost for pretty much his whole career. Axe, I'd be lying if I said a little part of me wasn't rooting for "Emdog" each game. You win.

Not really sure how 3 on 3 hockey is any better than a shootout? Also, nothing is more satisfying after watching 60+ minutes of competition than to end it in a tie. Sort of...uncompetitive...doncha think?

I love the shootout but hate the spinorama. Not too disappointed if this happens, but would hate to see the SO go. Who doesn't like watching Pav undress goalies after a grueling 60 minutes?

I'm not really sure if I follow your logic. It's sort of a platitude to suggest that all things being equal, somebody will score more with more ice time. That's true of every player in the league. But that's not the only thing that factors into production. Even on the second PP unit, Filppula had better teammates surrounding him and played against lesser quality competition (if you consider the 2nd pk unit is worse than the first). I'll grant you that Weiss would have a tougher time getting top PP minutes in Detroit, but there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't produce as much or more with better quality linemates and while the quality of competition stayed equal. And he would have gotten that opportunity given how bad our PP has been, and how many PP regulars have missed significant time the last several years. Edit: Here's an example of what I'm talking about. In the 2011-2012 regular season Kovalchuk led all forward with 4:55 seconds of PP time per game. Claude Giroux had a full minute less with 3:54 seconds of pp time per game. However, Giroux had 9 more pp points over the course of the season. Why? Because Philadelphia had the best ranked power play in the league and New Jersey was tied for 14th. Every year Detroit has a better powerplay than Florida. So even with the difference in pp time on ice, Filppula should score as much or more than Weiss if their talent level is as equal as you say. Yet he doesn't. Ever.

Again, given how bad our PP was last year and at the beginning of this year Weiss would have been afforded every opportunity, just as Filppula has been. And considering his track record with substandard talent, there's every reason to believe that he would have produced MORE than he did in Florida and earned time on the top PP unit. Just as Filppula could have done. You're making it seem like Filppula hasn't been given a chance to shine on the PP. Either that or that he's been given the chance, played well, and then demoted for basically no reason at all. And don't tell me the reason he didn't see more time was because he was outplayed by better players. He had fewer PP points this season than Dan Cleary did, and only one more than Nyquist did (in far fewer games). He flat out stunk on the PP as Torts would say. That's why he didn't get more time. Edit: Here's something indicative, even if you take away all of Weiss' power play points, since the 2006-2007 season he still scored 208 pts. During that same period Filppula scored 250 pts (pp included). I picked the 06-07 season as my beginning point because since then both Weiss and Filppula have played exactly the same number of games. So with ZERO pp time in that span, Weiss would have only scored 42 pts. less than Filppula did with all of his pp time, which over the course of those seven season equates to 6pts. per season. So Flip with all his PP time, and Weiss with none of it, is good for six more points per season on average.

I disagree, Quincey had every opportunity to lock down a spot on the PP point both at the end of last season and for much of this season. Aside from Kronwall there were no "givens" on our PP points and had Quincey produced the spot would have been his. He was certainly given the opportunity. However, he was ultimately outplayed on both units and therefore the door closed on Quincey as a PP producer. Same with Filppula, the guy has had every opportunity to show he can produce with more ice time (both even strength and on the PP), and he hasn't done it. All of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen have missed significant periods of time the last several seasons and Filppula has always been the next in line. If he had made good with those opportunities and produced, it's highly unlikely that he would have been placed back down on the 2nd PP just for sh*ts and giggles. Fact is, he didn't and that's why he wasn't awarded more time than he was given.

Right, and two years ago nobody in their right mind would rather have had Kindl than Quincey. Just like nobody in their right mind would rather have Filppula than Weiss. Now, if (in the future) Filppula comes out of his shell and Weiss falls off the face of the planet then I'd be happy to admit that the swap didn't work out for us. But right now, based on their careers up to this point, Stephen Weiss is a noticeably better hockey player than Filppula, just like Quincey was a noticeably better player than Kindl when he was traded for.

If it's wrong, then I don't wanna be right.

Grit and toughness I can agree with, provided they can also take a regular shift and play some hockey. But your post said something about "to the goon mobile", which suggests goons and not actual players. As such, I have to disagree and repeat my previous objection. All too often members of this forum merge the ideas of "grit" with the idea of "goons". They aren't the same. Draper, Maltby, and Helm all have grit, but none of them are/were goons. I'll take grit, but keep the goons off the ice as far as I'm concerned.

I'm having a hard time determining whether I'm being added in here out of sarcasm, or if you actually think I'm in favor of "gooning it up" based on my previous posts around this forum. If the latter, then I've obviously been very unclear for the last several years. In short, I've never EVER been in favor of gooning it up. Although I did once make a fantasy roster of goons just to screw with Blueadams, but that was tongue in cheek.

Weiss has consistently produced more than Val. The fact that he has earned more PP time on his respective team, and made good use of that time by scoring a lot, shouldn't be held against him. There's a reason he gets more PP time and more even strength time than Val does...he's a better player. If Val scored as often as Weiss does on the PP then he'd see more minutes.

They actually measure that stat at hockeyanalysis.com. Filppula's teammates are WAY better than Weiss' across the board. That's saying something when Filppula's second and third line teammates are better than Weiss' first line support.

Filppula has one season with more than 20 goals and 40 pts. Weiss has four 20+ goal seasons and six 40+ point seasons. Weiss also is a career 50% faceoff guy, is noticeably faster than Filppula, shoots more often, plays stellar defense, and kills penalties. He's a MUCH better player than Filppula. I don't know if he's the answer to all of Detroit's offensive woes, but to suggest that he's not is a significant upgrade over Filppula is absurd.