kipwinger

Doens't it seem likely that the reason that Toews and Kane have so many goals is precisely because they've got serious depth across the lineup though? You can't really double team either of those guys when they're on the ice because Hossa and Sharp can beat you on their own if you don't take them seriously. I think both Pav and Hank's numbers are low because teams have figured out that the Wings can't beat you when Pav or Hank are kept off the board. You can't do that with Chicago. By having real depth in their forward core it opens up the ice for the stars as well.

I agree that they're probably have to go young and start with the rebuild now (though I'm not sure that was the plan as recently as a couple weeks ago). But I hope they don't "stockpile" the young talent. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. Seems like if they're going to do this they really need to see what they've got, and they can't do that unless they play these guys and give them good looks. You're not really doing yourself any favors by loading up on all these young guys only to keep them in GR while guys like Abby, Sammy, Cleary, Colaiacovo, and White are in the lineup. If you're going to rebuild, it seem like you're still going to have to make the unpleasant choice of cutting guys loose. And that's something this organization is generally reluctant to do.

What with the litany of excuses bandied about by Babs after the Calgary game, it's hard for me to think anybody has any reason to give a damn. On the Howard turnover for a goal against Calgary: "I assume Bruns thought it was going to get rimmed to Howie, and Q thought the same thing, and Howie thought he was in a bad spot when it was dribbling towards him," coach Mike Babcock said. "It's a big mistake. You can watch hockey for years and never see two of those plays in one game, never mind in one year." On losing to Calgary (for the third time) after playing solidly against Chicago: “Pressure usually means you have a chance. Pressure on us is to maximize our potential and play as good as we’re capable of being. I think we’re where we should be. I’ve heard all year we’re not consistent. We are consistent. We’re one game or two games over each month. This is what we are. We’ve got to find a way to crawl into the playoffs.” Oh I see, it wasn't two massive f*ck ups that cost us two points, it was a statistical anomaly. And we're not inconsistent, we win as often as we lose. So what if when we lose it's typically to people we shouldn't, after we've led all (or most) of the game, and typically without getting a point. No biggie. "Right where we should be". I see the light now. All season long I thought we were playing poorly. Now I realize that we're playing really good and that our competitive and largely consistent game is being thwarted. Not by under-performance, boneheaded screwups, or substandard play from our core guys. But rather by random flaws in an otherwise mathematically predictable game. How foolish of me.

I agree that a lot of them are not good enough, but I think they're misutilized as well. For instance, Datsyuk needs the puck on his stick to be effective but he doesn't like to shoot, Brunner doesn't carry the puck much and does like to shoot. So put them together. Similarly, Zetterberg is defensively responsible and has shown that he can score a lot. Filppula is defensively responsible, and despite every opportunity, has shown he can't score. So why not let Flip center the second line (and take the lion's share of the defensive responsibility) and let Zetterberg play the wing where he can score. The defense is still in capable hands as Flip excels in that area, but at least you'll have someone on the wing that can score. Ideally, for the remainder of the season I'd like to see this. Brunner-Dats-Franzen Zetterberg-Flip-Abby Nyquist-Andersson-Cleary Tootoo-Emmerton-Miller/Eaves When Bert gets back swap him with Abby and put Abby where Emmerton is. When Sammy gets back he rotates in and out with Cleary. Also, if we make the playoffs I'd strongly consider scratching both Cleary and Sammy and putting Tatar with Nyquist and Andersson as they've obviously got a lot of chemistry and have worked well together

Of course they look worn out, they're carrying the team on their shoulders, and everybody knows it. Our team is a one trick pony and everybody has figured that out.

I agree. But I don't think it will make too much of a difference because at least in the short to medium term all of our prospects are undersize, pass first, perimeter guys, and most of them are centers or converted centers. I can't wait for a couple of years when we've got actual wingers with a little size (like Jurco, Frk, and Tvrdon) ready to be inserted into the lineup.

It's not just size, it's size and skill combined. Abby's got all the size you'd ever need but he doesn't know how to finish. Holmer could finish, Ryan Smyth can finish...Abby can't. He's got no knack for scoring at this level. What we need is a couple bigger bodies who know how to finish on a play. Guys like Horton, Stafford, Clarkson, Paajarvi, come to mind. They've got the size and skill to score down low, which is something we're sorely missing. Ideally I'd like a sniper too, and I think it would help with a lot of things, but until we get a legit net front presence on each of the top two lines I think we'll be kept entirely to the perimeter and therefore easily kept off the scoreboard in tight games.

Link on the shredded groin thing or just speculation? Brent Gilchrist had a shredded groin, you don't tough that out no matter who you are. Zetterberg isn't scoring because he and Datsyuk get keyed on all game, every game, because they're the only offensive threats we've got. If Franzen's line started scoring goals regularly then the defensive emphasis would shift to that line and Zetterberg would score again. That's called depth and it will help you. Simple as that.

It's funny because I agree with you about Holmstrom playing past the point that he should have, and it's interesting to note that even then he scored more often than any of our current wingers sans Franzen. In his last three seasons he scored 25, 18, and 11 goals. I'd kill for that kind of goal scoring in our top six right about now haha.

Here's some perspective. Datsyuk and Zetterberg are the biggest offensive threats we have. You know it, I know it, and every team we play knows it. When they're separated they get double teamed, and when they're together no other line has any potential offense. We simply don't have the horses. That's why they don't score...because everyone and their brother knows to key on those guys to the exclusion of everyone else.

Well at least Columbus lost last night, that would have really stung if they'd won too.

Haha, keep dreaming. We'll be in the same division soon enough and nobody wants to play against that guy. I'd love him in the Winged Wheel though. Pretty much the only guy in the league that could deal effectively with Backes (whom I also would love to have). Damn.

Yeah, obviously not a lot of accountability around here. Everybody in the organization is making excuses. Unless we lay a complete egg like the first game or the game against Chicago, where everyone is awful, there's never any effort to make guys pay for their half assed play. Mind you I don't want a Tortorella that demotes guys every other day, but some sort of accountability some of the time might go a long way on this team. I think it was Harold that said last night, if you started benching guys who passed when they should have shot, you might drive the point home (to the whole team) that you want shots and not dipsy doodle passes.

Ideally I'd like guys that are edgy, but at the same time know how to contribute. I don't think bringing in any more Tootoo type guys is going to do anything. But look at Columbus, they're a team full of scrappy, edgy guys, who still find a way to produce at the NHL level. Not that I necessarily think that Columbus is some sort of organizational model or anything, but simple that a couple Foligno, Dubinsky, Umberger style players would be helpful. Note to all the argumentative types out there: I am not saying I want to be Columbus nor am I saying that the three guys I mentioned are available, or should be on our radar. I'm just saying a couple guys with their skill set would probably help us out.

I actually agree. Cleary was a very legit second line winger on this team a few years ago. His age and knee troubles have taken his game away from him, but it's not like it was never there. Back then he made the wings hard to play against, he was tenacious, he went to the net, he had enough offense in him to be a credible threat. Even though we didn't win in 09, I liked the composition of that forward corps a lot better than I like what we've got going on now. I'd like to see a high end goal scorer for Dats (a Gaborik/Hossa type of guy) and a couple of grinding type guys that will give you 15-25 goals and will be hard to play against. Then role with... Goal Scorer-Dats-Grinder Grinder-Z-Franzen Nyquist-Flip-Brunner Tootoo-Helm-Abby/Miller

I like Sheahan fine, but he's another center. I'm sick of watching this team move centers to the wing and then complain that they don't shoot/score enough. I want actual wingers with some size, who can put the puck in the net. They don't have to score 40 goals a season. But if they could score 20-25 and do it from the crease/slot area then it would open up the ice for everyone else. Ideally they'd play well on the boards and hang onto the puck as well.

In their last game against Columbus, San Jose benched Joe Thornton for the entire third period because he was playing like garbage. Joe Thornton. I can't even imagine what it would be like to see our team bench anything for playing like s***. And obviously I don't mean Eaves, Kindl, Smith, Tootoo etc. etc. etc. Pretty easy to scapegoat those guys and bench them, takes a little more guts to do it with your high end talent.

Here's what I don't understand. Even if we cut all the fat from the forward corps. Let Cleary walk, buy out Bert or Sammy or both, and replace them will all the GR guys who deserve to come up, we're still one of the smallest and softest teams ever to be assembled. You can't have a top six of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Tatar, Brunner, Nyquist, Jarnkrok. They'll get forced to the outside, and wither away playing a perimeter game. So it's pretty obvious that at some point some of these guys are going to have to be moved out and replaced with gritty guys with size right?

Yeah, I understand them putting a premium on responsible defensive play. But to try and turn your franchise into Nashville, Phoenix, or someone like that doesn't make much sense. We haven't been drafting for that type of system, nor developing, nor coaching, nor anything. So switching midstream without the type of roster necessary to excel in that type of game is a bit silly. Then again, what do I know. It's obviously been working out for us thus far eh?

I don't know what you're talking about man. Babs just said that Abby is a 20 goal guy IF this were a full season. And obviously we'd score loads of goals IF Franzen brought it every night and IF Sammy and Bert weren't hurt, and IF Filppula would shoot more. Doncha see? We're not a low scoring team, we're a dynamic powerhouse offense who has somehow earned the wrath of the gods through no fault of our own. Probably by being so bad*ss for so long, if I had to guess. Long story short, no need for scorers, we've just got to "compete harder" and "want it" more than the other guys. WE'VE GOT SPIRIT YES WE DO, WE'VE GOT SPIRIT HOW BOUT YOU?!?!

If Jimmy D would just retire already this whole mess would sort itself out.

Fair enough, have a good one bud.

Not dumb luck. How many times does the goalie stop the puck for the defenseman to pickup? A million times a game? It's a routine play that they bobbled, bumbled, and ultimately got scored on. Luck had nothing to do with it. Execution did. Also, good teams that play good rise to the occasion in "must win" situations. They score on one of their million powerplay chances. They beat the worst team in the conference. They do lots of things. What they don't do is commit a litany of mental errors which ultimately give the game to the opposition on a night when their main competitors for the playoffs beat the second best team in the conference in a nearly identical situation.

You're going to have a hard time convincing people we didn't play terribly when two Detroit f*** ups led to two Calgary goals. We also had a load of power plays which we couldn't convert on, and we were completely lackluster in every other facet of the game. The fact that they were as lackluster offensively and defensively doesn't mean we weren't terrible...we were. They were just bad enough to make our utterly ineffective team look like it was doing something productive.

I disagree. It was sort of like, who's the smartest dumb kid. They couldn't score and didn't really play much defense. We couldn't score, didn't play much defense, AND actively gave them goals. We were clearly the worse team because we scored their goals for them, those weren't lucky bounces, they were miscommunications and screwups. Neither team was good, but we were probably the less...um...gooder? Edit: We gave them two goals by screwing up, they gave us one goal by being Canadian and therefore forsaken by God.