kipwinger

And clearly if you have the choice you'll show no appreciation or loyalty to a good leader, teammate, and hockey player and instead err on the side of money and young legs. Classy dude. He bought the cup in 2002.

Boy it would be super exciting to see Detroit buy a cup again. WooHoo, just what I've been missing. Screw all of that drafting, developing, and working young players into your system, that's not fun or interesting. It's way more sweet when Mike Ilitch can just buy anyone he wants. That's what real hockey looks like. The guy who posted above me just said he wouldn't sign Zetterberg! Yeah f*** the guy who's played his whole career for you, is the heart and soul of your current lineup, and took a pay cut to stay with you during his prime. Get rid of him! Ilitch can buy better. I seriously hope that nobody who is in favor of this, and especially nobody that would kick Zetterberg to the curb, ever talks about class in hockey again. You clearly don't know it, don't have it, and wouldn't recognize it if it bit you in the ass.

Any company that turns a 3.3 billion dollar profit is "stable" and the NHL is no different. It looks less stable because it shares less money which, as the article you linked points out, is what keeps small market teams in the other leagues competitive. The only thing that restricts the NHL's growth potential compared to the NBA, NFL, or MLB is that it really can't be played by kids growing up down south. And without a lifelong commitment to a game, it's hard to build fans. Other than that, it's no less "stable" than any of the other major leagues.

Woe to whichever side loses this court battle. They're playing a game of chicken, and whoever comes out on top is going to absolutely neuter the other bunch. Especially for the players. If a judge should rule against them in all of this, then the deal they'll be forced to accept will be MUCH more lopsided then the one they turned down a couple weeks ago. Hope your lawyers are good ones boys. I'm sure both sides' legal teams are telling them it's in the bag, but only one is telling the true. The other side, no matter who it is, will wish they'd be a little more reasonable two weeks ago.

51/76, forgot a lot of easy ones. Lang, Markov, Lebda, Lilja, Modano. Damn.

I read this as Cam "Fowler" and was in total disbelief. I'm tracking you now.

1. Correct, you didn't say it explicitly. However when you say "Holland loves his soft fourth liners", call the 05-06 team "probably the softest of all time", sarcastically saying "lots of grit on that team", and then challenge me to name tough players who have played since the lockout, you strongly insinuate it. Now you can say all day long that such an insinuation wasn't your intent, but I'm going to have to call bulls***. 2. May and Downey did not play with the Wings for very long, but neither did Leino, Ritola, Hartigan, Langfield, Mowers, or Calder and you were more than happy to use them as evidence that "Holland loves his soft fourth liners". May and Downey, incidentally, played more games for the Wings than most of the guys you mentioned. 3. Perhaps the reason he doesn't keep guys like Downey, Drake, and May around is because they are a dime a dozen and so there's no need to sign them to long term contracts. Also, maybe because all three of them retired after playing in Detroit. Those tough players who aren't old or perpetual fourth liners do get signed long term, like Maltby, Shanan, Draper, Kronwall, Chelios, and Stuart who were all kept around for a while.

Ok, I'd love to oblige you. Brendan Shanahan, Jiri Fischer, Chris Chelios, Danny Markov, Todd Bertuzzi, Dallas Drake, Darren McCarty, Kirk Maltby, Kris Draper, Aaron Downey, Brad May, Niklas Kronwall, Brad Stuart and now Jordin Tootoo all played for the Wings post lockout (not that post lockout should matter since Holland was the GM before the lockout), and all of them are noted for their tough and/or gritty play. I think you are understating the number of tough guys the Wings have used simply because most of them aren't goons and don't take stupid penalties, which given your screen name is something you obviously enjoy. But to say the Wings have not used gritty/tough players under Holland is wrong. Dead f'ing wrong.

Mowers (52 games), Langfield (33 games), Emmerton (71 games), Hartigan (23 games), Ritola (7 games), Calder (19 games). Man Ken Holland loves softies fourth liners, which is why they are constantly playing more games than tough guys like Dallas Drake (65 games), Aaron Downey (60 games), Brad May (40 games), Kocur (136 games), McCarty (200+ games), Malty (200+ games), Draper (200+ games). Try all you want, but whenever anyone tries to make the argument that Ken Holland doesn't like tough payers they are demonstrably wrong. For every Ville Leino you can point at, I can point out a Dallas Drake who played for the team much more often and in more important roles...all on the fourth line. Holland uses tough guys just as much as anyone else in the league, get over it.

Ken Holland loves soft fourth liners huh? You mean like Dallas Drake, Aaron Downie, Brad May, Joey Kocur, Darren McCarty, Kirk Maltby, and Kris Draper? That soft, or softer?

Tom Renney was his coach in Edmonton. Tom Renney is now our assistant coach. Tom Renney hated Linus Omark and thought that he was lazy and entitled. No way the Red Wings slap their new coach in the face by doing that against what is certain to be his advice to the contrary.

I had a lengthy response typed in my post above, but after reading this post of yours I decided out of kindness to not continue this conversation any longer. It's brutal to see what a lack of hockey has done to you. I replaced that post with a joke. A not very good joke.

Did you hear about the new courduroy pillow? It's making head lines.

If the owners were sick of him then he'd be fired. If the owners didn't want the voting rules changed to give Bettman more power they wouldn't have voted for it. And most importantly of all, if the owners didn't want a lockout they wouldn't have voted for it...unanimously. Who gives a damn how much he gets paid, everything that Gary Bettman did, does, or does not do was sanctioned or is currently being sanctioned by the owners. Everything.

Are you trying to imply that Gary Bettman already is accountable to other people and that he didn't unilaterally force a lockout on the players, owners, and fans because he's a vicious little weasel who hates hockey and hates all of us? That's a novel perspective.

Look I already mentioned that there were a lot of guys more capable in the organization than Emmerton. My whole point was that just because there are guys who are better, doesn't mean that Emmerton sucks or that he won't turn into a decent NHL player. Now on to your post. None of Sheahan, Jurco, or Brunner have ever accomplished a single thing in professional North American hockey. Sheahan and Jurco aren't even good AHL players yet, let alone capable of being compared to Emmerton at the NHL level. One day they might be, but for now, you're reaching.

Why in the world would our roster look anything like that?

Who was it that said Emmerton had grit again? I'm still drawing a blank on that one.

I agree that we've got a lot of guys coming up who are more suited, whether in terms of skill level or in terms of role players, than is Emmerton. I was just trying to stick up for the guy because usually when there's some debate about whether X player is better than Y player it usually devolved into just bashing the other guy. I don't think Emmerton is that bad, and certainly not as bad as he's been made out to be in this thread. Still, Tootoo is the better player.

Agreed.

I actually don't think Emmerton is that bad. He's not a better player than Tootoo, but I do agree that he's probably better than he looked on the fourth line. I mean, the kid was drafted as a play maker, not a grinder, and he's not being used in that role. Regardless, he still played 71 games in his rookie season and scored 10 pts. By comparison, Justin Abdelkader didn't play 70+ games until his third season and scored 19 pts. Give Emmerton two more seasons and I think he'd be at least that effective if not more so.

I wasn't aware that the league set ticket prices or told Reebok how to charge for their merch. Damn. They do have a lot of power.

I see what you mean, I don't think the issue is that it's only 50 players, but rather (as Bettman stated in his presser yesterday) that the tend is going toward longer contracts. As he said, prior to this last cba, only one player had a contract of that length. I think they're trying to preempt the problem. But you're right, it doesn't affect that many people.

Like I said, all the owners favor revenue sharing, the NHLPA favors revenue sharing, and all the fans of teams who lose money (the majority of teams and fans) probably favor revenue sharing. So I'm not really sure who exactly does favor it, aside from fans in cities making money. Even then I don't know why they care, considering it's not their money, and their own players and owners organizations support the system.

Because that would make the league less, and not more, competitive? I'm not sure we're seeing eye to eye on the definition of competitive. More teams, all with a reasonable chance of winning in any given year, is competitive. Less teams, dominated by those that spend the most, is not competitive. You apparently favor having fewer teams, with success contingent on who can buy the most free agents, which if fine. But don't sit here and preach about how you want more competition. Also, I'm going to reiterate again, the players want revenue sharing too. So stop making it seem like revenue sharing is some awful sin perpetrated by Bettman and the league. Players want more teams, because more teams mean more jobs, and more money. As a matter of fact, the owners want more teams, the players want more teams, and the fans in places like Dallas, Nashville, Phoenix, and Carolina want more teams. The only people that want teams to fold are people like you...an extreme minority.