kipwinger

That wasn't what I was saying at all.

Again, why is everybody so against Abby being the fourth line center, considering he's a much worse winger than Bert, Cleary, Sammy, Eaves, Miller, Nyquist, and maybe Brunner? Why do we need to shop for a fourth line center when we've got a better one than last year, and better wingers than Abby when he plays that position?

I must be a pessimist, but if those point totals (with that lineup) are even remotely accurate, I'll have to kiss someone's ass. God knows I hope for the best possible point production though.

I really don't see moving Franzen or Flip out for Nash, Ryan, or anybody else, until someone else is brought in. In my opinion the problem with our forward core is not that it's not skilled enough, but that it's not deep enough. Switching Nash for Flip or Franzen improves the skill level on that one wing, but doesn't improve our depth at all. We still wouldn't have 6 legitimate top six forwards...unless either Nyquist, Sammy, or Brunner produces WAY above what's expected of them.

Abby is a better NHL center than Sheahan or Andersson, and Miller and Eaves are better NHL wingers than Abby. Therefore, the line you mentioned, while ostensibly tough, is really less good than another you could put on the ice at any given time. Maybe put that line out when you're playing a bigger team or something.

I agree with you that it will be fun to see, but as it stands I'm not expecting a lot considering all those forwards can't play at the same time. And I've already mentioned what is reasonable to expect out of Red Wings' rookies. But like I said, it will definitely be interesting.

Well, if history is any indication or youngsters will probably respond like this: "Since the lockout, the average production by a Red Wings forward in his first two seasons has been four points in 21 games and 223 minutes of ice time. That list includes Filppula, Franzen, Hudler, Darren Helm, Ville Leino and 19 others. If you're looking for a best-case scenario, Franzen has turned in the best early production over that span with 12 goals and four assists in 80 games as a rookie in 2005-06". So here's hoping Brunner and Nyquist step WAY up. If not, then here's hoping that Smith, Sammy, and Tootoo were the pieces we needed to put a post season run together. Obviously, another acquisition or two changes that considerably.

I'm really not trying to bust your balls here, but just so I know what it is that you're optimistic about, would you mind throwing out a line combo so I can see what you see? Again, I'm really not trying to be a smart ass...I just want to follow you more accurately.

As of right now, if Sheahan or Andersson were on the fourth line the team would look like this Bertuzzi-Dats-Franzen Filppula-Z-Sammy Nyquist/Brunner-Helm-Cleary Tootoo-Sheahan/Andersson-Abby If Abby plays the fourth center position that fourth line looks like this... Tootoo-Abby-Miller/Eaves. The second scenario is waaaaaaaaay better. Finally, in either scenario our top six is a total joke.

Add this signing to the Gustavsson and Brunner signings and file away in the, "Moves that sense to Kipwinger" cabinet.

Nothing will spark Franzen. What you see is what you get, for good and ill.

I'm going to try and paste this article in it's entirety because ESPN's dumbass "insider" crap won't allow most of you to see it. The article is captioned "Tough Offseason Leaves Detroit Lacking Firepower": "This offseason wasn't kind to the Red Wings. Blueliner Brad Stuart took a pay cut to return to San Jose. Jiri Hudler, who scored 25 goals and helped on 25 others, signed a big contract with the Calgary Flames. Zach Parise and Ryan Suter, the top two free agents this offseason, both chose the Minnesota Wild rather than suiting up for home games at Joe Louis Arena. And Nicklas Lidstrom, who won seven Norris Trophies as the NHL's top defenseman and helped the Red Wings win four Stanley Cups in 20 seasons with the franchise, decided to call it a career. Detroit has made the playoffs 21 years in a row, winning four Stanley Cups in six trips to the finals over that span, but it has been clear over the past few seasons that this team is regressing. If the Red Wings aren't able to add one of the top remaining free agents -- Shane Doan and Alexander Semin -- or can't swing a trade to add some offense, will there be enough firepower in Hockeytown for a turnaround? Line Combo/D Pairing EV Points Filppula-Hudler-Zetterberg 104 Bertuzzi-Datsyuk-Franzen 70 Lidstrom-White 45 Cleary-Helm-Miller 29 Datsyuk-Franzen-Holmstrom 20 Datsyuk-Holmstrom-Zetterberg 19 Filppula-Franzen-Zetterberg 14 Kronwall-Stuart 14 Datsyuk-Franzen-Zetterberg 13 Cleary-Datsyuk-Zetterberg 12 Abdelkader-Cleary-Miller 12 Kronwall-Lidstrom 10 Filppula-Franzen-Hudler 10 Abdelkader-Helm-Miller 10 Ericsson-Kindl 8 Lidstrom or Hudler was a key component on four of the 10 highest-scoring combos the Red Wings put on the ice during even-strength play last season. The trio of Hudler, Valtteri Filppula and Henrik Zetterberg was the team's most prolific, producing 104 even-strength points last season, 34 more than the second-best trio of Todd Bertuzzi, Pavel Datsyuk and Johan Franzen. If five-time 20-goal scorer Tomas Holmstrom retires, Detroit loses a veteran presence in front of the net that would need to be replaced. With Lidstrom and Stuart not suiting up in Motown next season, that leaves Jonathan Ericsson, Jakub Kindl and their eight points as the best defensive pairing still intact from last season. Making up the lost points at even strength is tough enough, but the Detroit power play has been headed downhill since the Wings' last championship in 2008 and likely won't be able to make up any shortfall. Conventional wisdom points us to a team's power-play percentage as an indicator of the unit's success, but the efficiency of a team's power play -- especially their shooting percentage -- regresses heavily to the mean. In fact, a team's shooting percentage has almost no predictive value from one game to the next. Shot volume, expressed as shots per 60 power-play minutes, however, is a persistent talent, making it a better indicator of future performance. Detroit Red Wings Season Results 2007-2012 Season Standings points Reg Season PP Shots For/60 Playoffs PP Shots For/60 Playoffs result 2007-08 115 61.9 63.9 Won Stanley Cup 2008-09 112 64.5 68.1 Lost Stanley Cup finals 2009-10 102 58.4 70.3 Lost conference semifinals 2010-11 104 57.4 57.0 Lost conference semifinals 2011-12 102 50.0 57.6 Lost conference quarterfinals Detroit's shot volume on the power play has seen a huge decline in the years following its back-to-back appearances in the Stanley Cup finals. The losses of Lidstrom, Hudler and Holmstrom (if he retires) will exacerbate the issue next season unless some of Detroit's other players -- such as offseason additions Jordin Tootoo and Mikael Samuelsson -- take bigger roles, but that is a longshot. Samuelsson, 35, is on his third team in three years. Tootoo set career highs in points (30) and assists (24) last season, but Nashville earned only 46 percent of even-strength shots in its favor while lining up against third- and fourth-liners. The rest of Detroit's bottom six has some youth and speed but combined for just 68 points in 2011-12. As Craig Custance noted Monday, the Wings' prospect pipeline could produce some help. However, those expecting to see another Zetterberg/Datsyuk-caliber talent emerge may want to curb their expectations. Since the lockout, the average production by a Red Wings forward in his first two seasons has been four points in 21 games and 223 minutes of ice time. That list includes Filppula, Franzen, Hudler, Darren Helm, Ville Leino and 19 others. If you're looking for a best-case scenario, Franzen has turned in the best early production over that span with 12 goals and four assists in 80 games as a rookie in 2005-06, and 10 goals and 20 assists in 69 games a season later. It's also worth noting that Franzen's rookie campaign came in his age-26 season. A bigger wild card is Damien Brunner, who had 24 goals and 36 assists in 45 games last season in his native Switzerland. When coach Mike Babcock was asked if Brunner could adjust his play for the smaller North American rink, Babcock felt he could. "We're going to give him every opportunity," Babcock said. "He'll be a top-six forward to start with us and see where he goes." The roster is depleted, and the Red Wings play in a tough division that sent four teams to the playoffs. Detroit may still be a star on America's hockey map, but that star appears to be getting dimmer by the season."

Awesome.

The reason I think it's a bad offer is because it doesn't address the basic criteria that Howson has repeatedly said he'd need in a trade. Two roster players, plus whatever else. If I say I will take no less then three guys in a trade, and you offer me two, then you're lowballing me and I'm obviously not going to respond. In this case, it's obvious he wants two NHL ready forwards, the quality of those two forwards is the part where you negotiate, but it seems pretty set in stone in terms of the number of players he wants back.

Well someone was saying it was Franzen, prospect, pick...but hasn't felt it necessary to verify that with some evidence. That was what I was responding to, but it could be total bulls***.

I wonder what our management expected to have happen when they laid down that offer. You think they really anticipated that Howson, who's likely heard ten other offers that were as good or better (and turned them all down), was going to jump at it because he suddenly realized what a fool he's been?

Wow, I didn't see any reports with actual names or anything like that. I'm starting to think we really do lowball everyone we try to deal with. We've trying to trade a division rival for the face of the franchise and captain, and we don't even offer two roster players...unreal. How is this "one hell of an offer"?

We haven't had enough forward depth for several years. This would only further reduce that, unless we acquire a top six...or two. So no, please don't put them together.

Lyle Richardson of The Hockey News reports that Semin is rumored to be looking for a two year/ten million dollar contract. If this is true I honestly cannot understand why nobody (not just the Wings) has signed this guy yet. Something's screwy here.

Are you asking us or telling us? If this is truly what we offered, then this IS NOT "one hell of an offer". This might be enough to land Jeff Carter at last year's trade deadline, but not enough to land Rick Nash during this year's off season.

Players strike when they've got nothing to lose, owners strike when they've got everything to gain. Neither is the case this year. I'm predicting a new CBA with relatively few holdups, though it will probably carry on for while so that both sides can posture a little bit for next time.

This is true, but the very opposite might possibly happen as well. Once Doan figures out his situation then Semin is the only free agent game in town. Chances are he could cost much less before Doan's decision, and much more afterward. Hard to tell how this is going to shake out.

Scott Howson needs a goalie + Scott Howson is stupid as hell = The Dominator has a new job. It's simple math really.

Wait you mean an unrestricted free agent can sign for with any team he likes without even having to justify his decision in any way? This is bulls***! Looks like there's a new item for the CBA negotations. Get er done Bettman.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make, someone else beat him to the punch. Surely, if the Sabres GM could pull the strings on a deal like that then Holland could have. I don't think he wanted to, and hence we don't have Erhoff. Also, read again, I never said Erhoff was better or comparable to Rafalski, I said he'd put up ten points less (on average) per year and cost two million dollars less. Finally, I've NEVER suggested getting rid of Holland, I've simply said that there were things that could have happened over the last three years that would have left our defense in better shape than it's in. Holland missed out (or opted out) of those situations, which doesn't mean he should be fired, but I don't know why suggesting Holland should have done something different when the opportunity clearly presented itself is such anathema with some people around here. He's a great GM, but it's not like the guy can't make mistakes once in a while. And when he does, and some of us choose to discuss it, I don't see why we're considered treasonous by some, or worse accused of wanting him replaced (which neither I nor Esteef ever suggested). p.s. I'm not talking about you Carman, while we disagree, I do think that you've been perfectly reasonable the entire time.