kipwinger

I'm really not trying to bust your balls here, but just so I know what it is that you're optimistic about, would you mind throwing out a line combo so I can see what you see? Again, I'm really not trying to be a smart ass...I just want to follow you more accurately.

As of right now, if Sheahan or Andersson were on the fourth line the team would look like this Bertuzzi-Dats-Franzen Filppula-Z-Sammy Nyquist/Brunner-Helm-Cleary Tootoo-Sheahan/Andersson-Abby If Abby plays the fourth center position that fourth line looks like this... Tootoo-Abby-Miller/Eaves. The second scenario is waaaaaaaaay better. Finally, in either scenario our top six is a total joke.

Add this signing to the Gustavsson and Brunner signings and file away in the, "Moves that sense to Kipwinger" cabinet.

Nothing will spark Franzen. What you see is what you get, for good and ill.

I'm going to try and paste this article in it's entirety because ESPN's dumbass "insider" crap won't allow most of you to see it. The article is captioned "Tough Offseason Leaves Detroit Lacking Firepower": "This offseason wasn't kind to the Red Wings. Blueliner Brad Stuart took a pay cut to return to San Jose. Jiri Hudler, who scored 25 goals and helped on 25 others, signed a big contract with the Calgary Flames. Zach Parise and Ryan Suter, the top two free agents this offseason, both chose the Minnesota Wild rather than suiting up for home games at Joe Louis Arena. And Nicklas Lidstrom, who won seven Norris Trophies as the NHL's top defenseman and helped the Red Wings win four Stanley Cups in 20 seasons with the franchise, decided to call it a career. Detroit has made the playoffs 21 years in a row, winning four Stanley Cups in six trips to the finals over that span, but it has been clear over the past few seasons that this team is regressing. If the Red Wings aren't able to add one of the top remaining free agents -- Shane Doan and Alexander Semin -- or can't swing a trade to add some offense, will there be enough firepower in Hockeytown for a turnaround? Line Combo/D Pairing EV Points Filppula-Hudler-Zetterberg 104 Bertuzzi-Datsyuk-Franzen 70 Lidstrom-White 45 Cleary-Helm-Miller 29 Datsyuk-Franzen-Holmstrom 20 Datsyuk-Holmstrom-Zetterberg 19 Filppula-Franzen-Zetterberg 14 Kronwall-Stuart 14 Datsyuk-Franzen-Zetterberg 13 Cleary-Datsyuk-Zetterberg 12 Abdelkader-Cleary-Miller 12 Kronwall-Lidstrom 10 Filppula-Franzen-Hudler 10 Abdelkader-Helm-Miller 10 Ericsson-Kindl 8 Lidstrom or Hudler was a key component on four of the 10 highest-scoring combos the Red Wings put on the ice during even-strength play last season. The trio of Hudler, Valtteri Filppula and Henrik Zetterberg was the team's most prolific, producing 104 even-strength points last season, 34 more than the second-best trio of Todd Bertuzzi, Pavel Datsyuk and Johan Franzen. If five-time 20-goal scorer Tomas Holmstrom retires, Detroit loses a veteran presence in front of the net that would need to be replaced. With Lidstrom and Stuart not suiting up in Motown next season, that leaves Jonathan Ericsson, Jakub Kindl and their eight points as the best defensive pairing still intact from last season. Making up the lost points at even strength is tough enough, but the Detroit power play has been headed downhill since the Wings' last championship in 2008 and likely won't be able to make up any shortfall. Conventional wisdom points us to a team's power-play percentage as an indicator of the unit's success, but the efficiency of a team's power play -- especially their shooting percentage -- regresses heavily to the mean. In fact, a team's shooting percentage has almost no predictive value from one game to the next. Shot volume, expressed as shots per 60 power-play minutes, however, is a persistent talent, making it a better indicator of future performance. Detroit Red Wings Season Results 2007-2012 Season Standings points Reg Season PP Shots For/60 Playoffs PP Shots For/60 Playoffs result 2007-08 115 61.9 63.9 Won Stanley Cup 2008-09 112 64.5 68.1 Lost Stanley Cup finals 2009-10 102 58.4 70.3 Lost conference semifinals 2010-11 104 57.4 57.0 Lost conference semifinals 2011-12 102 50.0 57.6 Lost conference quarterfinals Detroit's shot volume on the power play has seen a huge decline in the years following its back-to-back appearances in the Stanley Cup finals. The losses of Lidstrom, Hudler and Holmstrom (if he retires) will exacerbate the issue next season unless some of Detroit's other players -- such as offseason additions Jordin Tootoo and Mikael Samuelsson -- take bigger roles, but that is a longshot. Samuelsson, 35, is on his third team in three years. Tootoo set career highs in points (30) and assists (24) last season, but Nashville earned only 46 percent of even-strength shots in its favor while lining up against third- and fourth-liners. The rest of Detroit's bottom six has some youth and speed but combined for just 68 points in 2011-12. As Craig Custance noted Monday, the Wings' prospect pipeline could produce some help. However, those expecting to see another Zetterberg/Datsyuk-caliber talent emerge may want to curb their expectations. Since the lockout, the average production by a Red Wings forward in his first two seasons has been four points in 21 games and 223 minutes of ice time. That list includes Filppula, Franzen, Hudler, Darren Helm, Ville Leino and 19 others. If you're looking for a best-case scenario, Franzen has turned in the best early production over that span with 12 goals and four assists in 80 games as a rookie in 2005-06, and 10 goals and 20 assists in 69 games a season later. It's also worth noting that Franzen's rookie campaign came in his age-26 season. A bigger wild card is Damien Brunner, who had 24 goals and 36 assists in 45 games last season in his native Switzerland. When coach Mike Babcock was asked if Brunner could adjust his play for the smaller North American rink, Babcock felt he could. "We're going to give him every opportunity," Babcock said. "He'll be a top-six forward to start with us and see where he goes." The roster is depleted, and the Red Wings play in a tough division that sent four teams to the playoffs. Detroit may still be a star on America's hockey map, but that star appears to be getting dimmer by the season."

Awesome.

The reason I think it's a bad offer is because it doesn't address the basic criteria that Howson has repeatedly said he'd need in a trade. Two roster players, plus whatever else. If I say I will take no less then three guys in a trade, and you offer me two, then you're lowballing me and I'm obviously not going to respond. In this case, it's obvious he wants two NHL ready forwards, the quality of those two forwards is the part where you negotiate, but it seems pretty set in stone in terms of the number of players he wants back.

Well someone was saying it was Franzen, prospect, pick...but hasn't felt it necessary to verify that with some evidence. That was what I was responding to, but it could be total bulls***.

I wonder what our management expected to have happen when they laid down that offer. You think they really anticipated that Howson, who's likely heard ten other offers that were as good or better (and turned them all down), was going to jump at it because he suddenly realized what a fool he's been?

Wow, I didn't see any reports with actual names or anything like that. I'm starting to think we really do lowball everyone we try to deal with. We've trying to trade a division rival for the face of the franchise and captain, and we don't even offer two roster players...unreal. How is this "one hell of an offer"?

We haven't had enough forward depth for several years. This would only further reduce that, unless we acquire a top six...or two. So no, please don't put them together.

Lyle Richardson of The Hockey News reports that Semin is rumored to be looking for a two year/ten million dollar contract. If this is true I honestly cannot understand why nobody (not just the Wings) has signed this guy yet. Something's screwy here.

Are you asking us or telling us? If this is truly what we offered, then this IS NOT "one hell of an offer". This might be enough to land Jeff Carter at last year's trade deadline, but not enough to land Rick Nash during this year's off season.

Players strike when they've got nothing to lose, owners strike when they've got everything to gain. Neither is the case this year. I'm predicting a new CBA with relatively few holdups, though it will probably carry on for while so that both sides can posture a little bit for next time.

This is true, but the very opposite might possibly happen as well. Once Doan figures out his situation then Semin is the only free agent game in town. Chances are he could cost much less before Doan's decision, and much more afterward. Hard to tell how this is going to shake out.

Scott Howson needs a goalie + Scott Howson is stupid as hell = The Dominator has a new job. It's simple math really.

Wait you mean an unrestricted free agent can sign for with any team he likes without even having to justify his decision in any way? This is bulls***! Looks like there's a new item for the CBA negotations. Get er done Bettman.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make, someone else beat him to the punch. Surely, if the Sabres GM could pull the strings on a deal like that then Holland could have. I don't think he wanted to, and hence we don't have Erhoff. Also, read again, I never said Erhoff was better or comparable to Rafalski, I said he'd put up ten points less (on average) per year and cost two million dollars less. Finally, I've NEVER suggested getting rid of Holland, I've simply said that there were things that could have happened over the last three years that would have left our defense in better shape than it's in. Holland missed out (or opted out) of those situations, which doesn't mean he should be fired, but I don't know why suggesting Holland should have done something different when the opportunity clearly presented itself is such anathema with some people around here. He's a great GM, but it's not like the guy can't make mistakes once in a while. And when he does, and some of us choose to discuss it, I don't see why we're considered treasonous by some, or worse accused of wanting him replaced (which neither I nor Esteef ever suggested). p.s. I'm not talking about you Carman, while we disagree, I do think that you've been perfectly reasonable the entire time.

The point I was trying to make with regards to Rafalski was that if he was making 6 million to put up 40-50 points in his old age, then I'd be willing to give Erhoff 4 million to put up 30-40 in his old age. That's all, I wasn't bashing Rafalski. I'm also not too wrapped up in plus minus either, but when a guy's only negative years come with the Islanders and Columbus I think there's something to take from it. All I'm getting at is that if you take Kronwall, Smith, Kindl, Ericsson, and Quincey and add to that any of the people I mentioned above, and our defense is in MUCH better shape. And acquiring any of those guys wouldn't have been too expensive or unreasonable.

I'm of the opinion that the reason we're the dominant force in the league is because we scout, draft, and develop talent better than just about anyone. Pair that with the fact that the organization treats players well and therefore, they're willing to stay at almost any cost. In my opinion, that's were Ken Holland earns all his accolades. He doesn't really splash in free agency or the trade deadline, but his ability to consistently produce homegrown talent, and keep it around, makes him one of the best in the league. Not because he does or doesn't spend too much money.

Well with Erhoff I doubt very seriously he plays until 40, so basically you've got a guy who will put up 30+ points a year, and runs the hell out of a powerplay, for 4 million dollars until the end of his career. I do understand being wary of that term though, and you're right, it's a gamble, but if Brian Rafalski can put up quality numbers despite having s***ty knees, at 36-37 years old, so can Erhoff...and Erhoff would be cheaper. Wiz is as good defensively as Kronwall, hits, fights, is 20 lbs. heavier, and scores as much or more, and god knows he'd help our powerplay Plus, unlike Erhoff, he won't be all that old when his contract is up...33 I think. In all honesty I don't really understand why people thought this one was so bad. His bad defensive years were with Columbus -13, and the Islanders -18. When he was traded from the Island to Montreal he was a plus four for the remainder of the season. Excluding the two years playing on two of the worst teams imaginable, the Wiz is a career plus defenseman. He does take bad penalties now and again, but usually it's because he's overly aggressive, something I wouldn't really mind on our team. Those are my defenses of those two guys, you're welcome to disagree, as neither of them are elite players and I'm aware of it. Obviously my list included more than just those two as well, but the point I was always trying to make is that there have been plenty of good defensemen available over the last three years. We either didn't want them, or didn't think we needed them. In lieu of our current defensive situation I'd say that those were both poor decisions. Finally, hindsight is 20/20, I get that. But isn't it part of a general manager's job to anticipate the future (as best as possible)? Holland constantly talks about the future. So it's hard for me to say that he shouldn't have been better prepared, preparation falls pretty much exclusively on his shoulders. He's still a great GM, but I agree with Esteef, he could have handled this better.

I completely agree, I watched the same off season as everybody else did. And certainly (as I said before) nobody expected to lose Lidstrom and Staurt in the same year. So I'm not here to condemn Holland or anyone else. I like Kronwall, I like White, and Ericsson, and Smith, and even Kindl...but I don't think it's reasonable to say that there were absolutely no moves (over the last three years) that would have left our defense in better shape than it's in. Finally, to give credit where it's due. I did like the White signing, it clearly worked out, and I did like the Quincey trade, which will. I don't think Holland did nothing, but in order to play devil's advocate I think it's only honest to side with Esteef in saying that in some cases better options were available. Erhoff and Wisniewski both have 50 point seasons too, and their cap hits are 4 and 5.5 milliion dollars respectively.

Actually I don't think Doughty is that good, and certainly never did a thing to deserve that 7 million dollar contract (which was given to him before the cup season). As it is, we've got one of the smallest team defenses, and almost all of them are considered puck movers and not top notch defensively. AND there's only five of them!

I don't like any situation in which we only have five defensemen under contract, the best of which scored 36 points last year and was a -3 defensively in spite of playing regular minutes with defensively responsible players such as Stuart, Zetterberg, and Filppula.

Obviously nobody can replace Lidstrom, but there have been plenty of guys over the last couple of years who are legit top four defenders, and if you want a top four defenseman (or top six winger) and you aren't currently developing any in your farm, then you're going to have to overpay in free agency (or else watch them go somewhere else). (2012) Carle, Wideman, Allen (2011) Wisniewski, Pitkanen, Erhoff, Jovanovski, Kaberle (2010) Paul Martin, Dan Hamhuis are all guys who were available and could have been signed. I know some of them got s***ty contracts and all that, and maybe that would have been the case no matter what, but you never know who'd be willing to take less to avoid places like Florida, Buffalo, or Columbus. That's the kicker though, it has to be a LITTLE bit less (in term or salary), you can't expect free agents to turn down millions of dollars in difference just because this is Detroit. Every team has potential anymore. I honestly believe the reason none of the above mentioned were signed is because nobody expected to lose Lidstrom and Stuart in the same year. I don't think Kenny is a f*** up, but let's not pretend like there were simply no conceivable options for the last couple of years.