kipwinger

Roughing is the league's catch all penalty for "being to rough with the other boys".

Whatever the weight of Stephane Robidas, here's the statement I was originally responding to: "When the Wings had players who were more gritty and could throw down, I guess I'm thinking the Grind Line or a Dallas Drake, they brought something else to the table and were a good overall hockey player as well who could sometimes bury and always got back on defense. That kind of player is hard to come by in this league these days." Keeping in mind that we're on a thread about Justin Abdelkader fighting, I thought it was germaine to the discussion to point out that in the 2007-2008 season (e.g. the one everybody loves to talk Drake up in), he fought less and "buried" less than Abdelkader. Additionally, as Abby is a +7 on the season I find it hard to believe that he get's back on defense any less than Drake did. So as much as everyone wants to make Drake out to be a superhero, at least in the few instances just discussed, he didn't add as much as Abby has this season. The only reason anyone thinks so is because when he did hit guys, he hit them harder, which is cool and all...but doesn't really amount to s*** when you're comparing all around performance. However, I'll concede the point when you bring in the grind line, because they were all better players than Justin Abdelkader, in spite of the fact that only one of them fought as much or more than he does.

Exactly. But to add to that, in my opinion he still has the skill to do it, just not the work ethic or motivation.

Ok, I'm confused. Doesn't part of the new enforcement deal with hitting guys when they're in vulnerable positions or no? Note: Nevermind, the vulnerable position stuff was added to rule 48 on boarding. As he wasn't boarded this isn't an issue and the hit is ok.

I agree with you. All I'm saying is that the way that they've been enforcing hits all year suggests that you're supposed to bail out on a hit if the other guy is in a vulnerable position and one could argue that Letang was. I like Nystrom and love his hard hitting game so I doubt that he ever considered letting up, but I think that's what the league expects guys to do in that situation from now on. Like I said, I don't think he deserves a suspension and I don't think he'll get one. But I won't be surprised if he gets a fine.

I don't know how the rule works here. Obviously there's shoulder to chin contact, but it seems like this is only the case because Letang was crouched and his head was down around shoulder level. Nystom doesn't jump or lift his elbow or shoulder at all really. I guess the question becomes could Nystrom have avoided the hit entirely without taking himself completely out of the play. That, I think, you could argue either way. Note: After watching it closely for the fourth time, Letang plays the puck first and Nystrom never even really makes an attempt to play it. I don't think Nystrom got up high, but he didn't need to make that hit. Letang is vulnerable because he reached out to poke the puck away. My best guess is Nystrom gets a fine but no suspension.

No doubt he was a pretty good hitter, but I don't think the example I'd use to show that would be a couple of hits on Stephane Robidas..you know, considering the guy is small and isn't real tough. It would be like saying "Check out how tough Jordin Tootoo is. He absolutely killed Cory Emmerton here." I agree with you on Abby though.

So has Zetterberg, and Cleary, and Kronwall for that matter. I don't see them half-assing it 3 out of every 4 games.

So the point you were trying to make is that on occasion Dallas Drake was capable of hitting 180 lbs. puck moving defensemen pretty hard?

Wasn't aware that Drake fought Robidas?

In the 2007-2008 season Dallas Drake only fought 5 times (one less than Abby this season) and according to hockeyfights.com he only won two of them.

That's a strange coincidence. Joey reminds me of the badger He could take some of the pressure of Bertuzzi too by become our bona fide #1 penalty minutes leader by a TON. No thanks on Ott. Twice a many penalty minutes as Bert. Zero more fights than Abby.

Thought maybe if I baited you enough you'd drop the gloves. Not my day I guess. Anyway, here's a link to an interview with Joey Kocur from the radio show "This American Life". Interesting interview. Nothing really new, but something the enforcer types will love none the less. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/363/enforcers

What's the matter, you don't remember all those times that Justin Abdelkader getting his ass kicked helped the Red Wings ****** victory from the jaws of defeat? Oh...me either.

I think you're right. It's obviously hard to ***** about the guy's production over the past couple of years, especially given how much we pay for it. I think the real *****, at least for me anyway, is that except in rare circumstances, I've never believed that Franzen was the kind of guy who could take a game over and completely dominate. Obviously he's had a boat load of multiple point games, but that's not what I mean. I mean a guy that works so hard every shift, that opposition defenses have to match against him, have to spend time and effort to slow him down, or have to eat s*** if they don't. What's frustrating is that it's not that he doesn't have the skill set to do it, but rather, he's just kind of lazy. To me, what makes Pav, Z, and more and more often Filppula, so dangerous is that they are skilled enough to beat you themselves, but also because you have to take them seriously on every shift, they open the ice up for their linemates. I think Franzen could play that way, but sadly doesn't. I think he's the beneficiary of a lot of hard work from the other guys. And again, you could say this about a lot of people, but in most cases they're limited by a lack of pure skill. A limit Franzen doesn't have. Don't get me wrong, 25-30 goals a year is nice, and for the money it's wonderful. But 25-30 goals a year that commands a defensive response, and makes everyone around him better would be much nicer. And the only thing stopping Franzen from being a guy like that, is Franzen himself...which is just sort of, frustrating. Basically, I see a guy who is already effective, but with a more consistent effort could be a Cory Perry or Shane Doan type guy. Somebody who's an absolutely beast to play against every night. Lord knows I'd love to see that.

This Smith/Kindl pair looks good tonight

Incredible how much harder Franzen seems to skate after he's been demoted.

Here's a real good stream, except it's the Columbus commentators. http://www.firstrowsports.eu/watch/110328/2/watch-columbus-blue-jackets-vs-detroit-red-wings.html

I was thinking about this too. The fact that every single roster player and higher end prospect was off the table before negotiations started does say something about the confidence that KH and Babs have in this lineup. Personally, I would have entertained offers on any of our forwards except Pav, Hank, and Filppula, just to see what kinds of offers we'd get, but apparently that's not KH's style.

No prob. People s*** on Ericsson enough around here that it's almost second nature to just assume that's what's happening whenever you see his name brought up. I, however, am one of the minority on record who think that he's been just fine this year. If not, then I am now: ERICSSON HAS BEEN JUST FINE THIS YEAR PEOPLE!

Read it again, I didn't say that Kindl was better than Ericsson. I said Quincey/Kindl is better than Ericsson/Kindl. In this situation the comparison is whether Quincey is better than Ericsson, as Kindl is the common partner in each case. I didn't compare Ericsson to Kindl. Take a minute to catch up and then think to yourself, "is a pairing of Quincey and Kindl (what we have now because of an injury to Ericsson) a better pairing than one with Ericsson and Kindl (what we had two weeks ago because Quincey wasn't on the team)?" Obviously the best scenario is Quincey and Ericsson, and I suggested as much in my original post. It was probably the slash that threw you off. I'll use a dash next time when denoting defensive pairings.

I know a lot of people disagree, but I consider Burke one of the better GM's in the league. If both he and Holland are saying there wasn't s*** on the trade market for the prices asked, then I have a tendency to believe it. And I agree with you, thank god we're already a contender. As pissed as people are at Holland for doing nothing, I can only imagine the rage being showered on Burke right now.

I think everybody (including Holland) realized we needed more scoring up front, and maybe (I don't agree with this but many do) a little grit on the bottom six. But considering nothing much was available for the price, it never hurts to shore up your defense before the playoffs. No matter how you look at it, the pair of Ericsson and Quincey is considerably better than Ericsson/Kindl or Ericsson/Commodore. As a matter of fact, even Quincey/Kindl is better than Ericsson/Kindl. So no matter how you look at it, we're a better team now (injuries aside) than we were two weeks ago. Long story short...I agree with you.

I appreciate you guys' enthusiasm, but how can you possibly want to speculate about trades right now? The deadline takes it all out of me. At this point I'd rather listen to people unnecessarily criticize Hudler and Ericsson than fantasize about future trades. I'm sure I'll change my mind in a week though...ugh.

Good point. 50 years from now everybody will remember that Franzen had comparable, yet slightly better numbers than Cleary did during the same time period, and worked about 1/3 as hard per shift. You're right, stats don't tell the whole story. And with Franzen the whole story is: talented yet opportunistic scorer with less than desirable work ethic, who posted moderately impressive numbers in spite of his own laziness, on the best/one of the best offensive teams in each year of his entire career. Such a write up puts him in the same category as other illustrious Red Wings. Notably, Keith Primeau and Robert Lang.