kipwinger

Why is it that every time I hear someone going gaga over all this hard hitting, "putting guys into the fourth row" business, I always imagining them slamming a beer, crushing it on their foreheads, and then high-fiving their bros. over how awesome it is? Then I get sucked back into reality and thank god that I'm a fan of a team who is among the least penalized in the league every year and is therefore constantly at an advantage because they don't skate around taking runs at guys, retaliating, getting into fights, or instigating. touche, but all I've ever said (from the beginning) is that our bottom six is fine, and is plenty physical and/or gritty enough. Making it more so would be pointless, potentially disadvantageous, and costly. We don't get beat because our bottom six is too soft, we get beat because our top six is not as deep as the top six of other elite hockey teams.

Agreed.

Miller and Eaves block shots, kill penalties, finish checks, and play solid defense. I'm sorry that they don't destroy dudes with every check. You know who else didn't? Draper and Maltby, and everyone around here (rightly) worships them like gods for their gritty play. Additionally, if our entire bottom six consisted of Darren McCarty type guys, we would ******* suck.

Jesus Christ. There's no way to respond to this. I'm defeated.

Nope, nothing about the standings. What I will say is that you want people to finish checks, block shots, kill penalties, grind on the defense, and work hard right? Don't Helm, Cleary, Abdelkader, Miller, Conner, and Eaves already do this? The only thing that these guys don't do as well as the teams you talk about, is fight. You single out guys like Ben Eager, Adam Burrish, and Aaron Ward for physical play but think Helm, Cleary, and Abdelkader aren't at least as good as those guys. Helm, Cleary, Abdelkader, and Eaves kill every penalty when they're in the lineup, they block shots constantly, none of them lay off their checks, what else do you want? Do you really think Ben Eager is any (or all that much) better than Abdelkader? You talk about not being able to match up in playoff series and then suggest that it's the bottom six forwards that are the problem. Had you considered the fact that the top six forward depth might be the reason we got bounced from the playoffs the last couple of years? For Christ's sake, I watched Franzen and Hudler each blow coverage on Dan Boyle in two consecutive playoffs games for goals last year. We lost both the games by a goal. We've already got the workers on the bottom end, but maybe it would be better to bone up on the top end...as has been the stated need of the team since the preseason. How many goals did Setoguchi have against the Wings last year in the playoffs? I don't recall him being the responsibility of the third or fourth line guys. You keep saying we lost last year because we're not "gritty" enough and then ignore the fact that in the majority of the cases it wasn't our third and fourth lines getting scored on. note: Last Year's goals against in the San Jose Series: forwards Setoguchi (5), Pavelski (2), Ferriero (1), Couture (4), Heatley (1), Marleau (1), Defensemen White (1), Wallin (1), Boyle (2). note 2: In that series, San Jose's top six consisted of some combination of Thornton, Marleau, Heatley, Setoguchi, Couture, Pavelski. Awful lot of top six scoring there.

I'm not ready to say the guy is a weasel, or a dirty player, but I think it was kind of a dirty play and honestly, I sometimes like dirty play, particularly from guys who you expect it from. I was always a big Maltby and Chelios fan, so I'd be a hypocrite if I condemned the guy for a dirty play, but he got caught and now he has to do the time.

I don't think you are necessarily wrong, but given how tight the league is this year, and the value that Ryan would have to a team eager to compete for a cup, or put themselves over the playoff hump, I think it's the kind of deal that's going to be needed to land him. I can see a lot of teams willing to throw that kind of package at Anaheim for him, overpayment or not. Realistically, even though the Ducks are the sellers they've already got a known (and quality) player in Ryan, and it's not like they need to move him...a la Danny Heatley with Ottawa...so if they aren't getting a huge return, there's no real reason to pull the trigger on a trade. It's not as though Ryan is the problem with the Ducks.

no prob.

well for starters, Ovechkin didn't drive shoulder first into Subban's knee as you can see Marchand doing here , and in live video here...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GN2cFZ1oMA. Ovi's is a hip check, legs extended, torso parallel to the ice surface, etc. Marchand's was a deliberate targeting of the knee, as per Shanny's explanation seen here, http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=60&id=148388

At no point in that article does Babcock say he likes having enforcers around. The only thing which Babcock is quoted as saying in the whole article is "keep the flies off", in reference to what an enforcer does. He does not make one single qualitative judgement about whether or not he likes having that around or not. As a matter of fact, the article does say that May played less than half a season before being sent down, and Downey played 70% of the previous season before being sent down, and we know from historical hindsight that neither of them played in the playoffs, so it's safe to assume (as he's the one who chooses the lineup each game) that Babcock does not want guys like that playing when games matter. Nothing has changed, we're the team we've always been with Babcock as coach...so now can we get on to the next part of the debate which questions the validity of that coaching philosophy and argues that you're more likely to win with an enforcer or grittier bottom 6...oh wait, we did that already too, and one of the previous posters already showed why that's a myth. Again, this whole debate revolves around people on this thread trying to use post hoc justifications to validate a more physical game, not because it's better hockey, but because they personally like to see a more physical team on the ice.

What killed Marchand's credibility is the fact that the exact same play happened less than 20 seconds before the clip and Marchand didn't feel the need to "instinctively" crouch down...that and he retaliated after the first hit as well. Not really too hard for Shanny to see through the bulls*** on that one.

Brendan's video explanation is pretty good, I don't really see how anybody could argue it.

Don Cherry is an obnoxious blowhard who never won s***, and certainly never spent 20 years building a modern dynasty. Every so often he parrots his same old bulls*** (this time he just stole it from Brian Burke) and somebody latches on to it because they'd "like" to see a more physical game played by the Wings. End of the day, Holland makes the smart move, the guys that want more bruisers mutter curses to themselves, and the Wings keep winning.

I'm not sure how much lower he needs to go in order to consider this a clip...maybe if he were crawling on all fours, or perhaps touched his nose to Salo's laces.

I agree to an extent, but not necessarily in the way that you're implying. In an effort to increase the profile of the NHL, to attract more non-traditional fans, and to increase offense, the owners, GM's, and most importantly the board of governors hired Gary Bettman with the expressed desire to increase offense and scoring in the league. Bettman has done exactly what he was hired to do, increase the tempo and skill level of the game. He's done this by changing the rules of the game and how it's called. We don't have two line passing anymore, they moved faceoffs after penalties into the offensive zone, they don't allow clutching and grabbing the way that they used to. The refs aren't doing this for the hell of it, there was a very clear change to the way that the game was going to be played after the NHL hired Bettman. Now we have to live with more penalties, more speed, and everything else that comes with that type of game...including the diminished role of enforcer types, an emphasis on skill over power, concussions, dirty hits, ect. So I agree that the refs are a bigger part of the game now, but only because that was what Bettman did to increase offense, and that was what the league wanted when they hired the guy.

Wow, this is crazy. It looks like you use actual statistics to show that when you're talking hits or "grit", the team we have now is comparable to those that won the cups. So that must mean that if someone wants to chalk those cups up to "physicality" they must be talking about fighting then huh? Good post. Well said. Me, I think I'd rather have a bigger bodied winger who shoots first and works the center of the ice, if he can hit great, if not, oh well. Tuomo Ruutu much?

It would be hard for anyone here to ***** too much about Hudler's point production. I think the reason most people have for wanting to move him, either off the second line or to another team, is that the guy cannot play reliable defense against high end opposition forwards. The games against Pittsburgh and Chicago were good examples of this. Any elite team, which can roll out six high end forwards is going to be problematic for Detroit, especially when we're on the road, because we won't get the matchups that we want and they can exploit the fact that Hudler is a little slow and a little...um...little. I personally don't like the idea of having that guy on the ice and expecting him to consistently defend the likes of San Jose, Vancouver, or Chicago's top lines. Hockey is played at both ends of the ice, and regardless of his point production, Hudler is (through no fault of his own) unable to defend against high end talent. I'd like to see a top six winger brought in, and Hudler moved off the second line, or off the team permanently.

Well if they'd hurry up and get a head coach that speaks French none of this would be happening. Glad to see they've got their priorities right in Montreal.

I'm sorry, what is it that Ericsson needs to do for someone here to give him a break and say that he's been a good third pair defenseman this year? His stats are nearly identical to Kindl's, a guy that everyone here (including me) thinks has been a real good third pair guy. Neither play on the powerplay, Ericsson at least kills penalties, and both are plus six on the season. I add the plus minus here in order to suggest that even if Ericsson is turning the puck over as much as everyone seems to suggest, it doesn't seem to be hurting the team at all. I'm really not trying to suggest that the guy is worth his contract, or that he's a superstar in the making, and I've never really liked him before, but based on his play this year I can't find too much to be pissed off about...considering he's a third pair guy and always will be.

I've been really impressed with Kindl's play so far this year, and I think he keeps getting better as the season progresses. The heads up play he made on the Helm goal a few weeks back really shows what the kid can do, and I think we'll see more of that as his confidence grows. That said, I do feel bad for Commie. He's a good team guy who really wants to play hockey, and I hate to see him sitting out after the way he was approached by Holland in the offseason. But then again, who knew Kindl and Ericsson would be so sold coming into this year?

I don't really know how the coaching change will affect the Ryan situation, I doubt they'll move him now, but if he'll still on the market, anybody think there's a chance we could package Stuart with some others for a trade? I know he wants to go back to Cali and the Ducks defense is pretty poor, so maybe they'd be interested. I absolutely don't want to see Stuart go, but if his mind is set on it, then it might work for all parties.

Anybody know why Miller wasn't taken out of the game and sent to the training staff for a concussion evaluation like every other player involved in a bit hit/potential injury situation is forced to do? He played for another period and a half. I'm not implying that he was faking or anything, I'm just wondering if there are a different set of rules for goalies with regards to injuries as well?

Is it just me or does Datsyuk look sloooooow this season? He's not holding on to the puck, he's moving slowly, he's not making moves that he typically would. Is he hurt or something? Anybody know anything?

Agreed, but Lucic is lucky Patrick Kaleta wasn't on the ice or else he would have got hit by something much worse than Miller's stick...actually hit about 20 times with something worse. Kaleta is a beast. Note: Haha, I just found a youtube video of Lucic busting Kalata in the nose. Oops.

Don't be such a princess about it. The point of the original post was not to say Datsyuk was bad, or even to ***** about his production. I was wondering if he were still recovering from injury or something because the moves he was making and the speed with which he were making them didn't seem very "Datsyukian". I think that was pretty straight forward from the start. With the exception of a handful of people on this site, every single post on every single thread just devolves to people bitching about whoever isn't playing up to their expectations, or else someone (like the guy I'm responding to here) being overly reactionary and acting as if I'd just dick slapped Datsyuk in the face. The question was simple, stick to the topics, start a new post, and get over yourselves.