kipwinger

Insanely deep. I like Lombardi a lot too. He's definitely the prospect I'm most excited to follow this season (next to Kasper). If we can come out of this last draft with two higher-end centers I'd be absolutely pumped.

I might be forgetting one or two people...

Good catch on the bolded. In that case I'd drop Ras and Andreasson (the only 23 year olds I had) and add Cossa and Sebrango to the end of my list.

I don't agree. Coaches use players situationally. Larkin can't play 30 minutes a night and neither Veleno nor Suter can defend well. So by default Rasmussen had to be used in those situations. If Luke Glendening was still on the team I'd agree Ras would have the opportunity to be used in more offensive situations. He probably will THIS year to be honest. But last year he was pretty much stuck doing the heavy defensive work because there wasn't anyone else. I presume Ras was drafted to be a top six power forward. Most teams don't use top ten picks on bottom six shutdown guys, but maybe I'm wrong. Holland was a dipsh*t after all.

The point was that we don't have many centers, and because of that Ras was forced to play a role (shutdown center) that he was not drafted for, which demands tougher zone starts, and generally pairs him with less offensively capable wingers. Conversely, because we are deeper on the wing Zadina largely played the EXACT role he was drafted for (scoring line winger) and sucked pretty badly. Fun Fact: Despite being drafted a year earlier, Ras is only 6 months older than Zadina and has only played 20 more NHL games. There is not some massive difference in their development. I might even argue that Ras's development was more impacted because he was NOT capable of going to the AHL in his D+1 year (unlike Zadina) because of the CHL/NHL agreement, and he dealt with significant injuries early in his pro-career.

The difference is even more pronounced when you factor in the powerplay. Ras had two powerplay points (out of 27 total points), both assists. Zadina had 8 powerplay points (out of 24 total points), 4 goals and 4 assists. So Ras, despite being pinned into the d-zone roughly 100 more shifts per season, still outscored Zadina at even strength by a sizeable margin.

I doubt management is "higher" on Zadina. Of the two he's the only one that was healthy scratched (several times) last season. Additionally, of the two Zadina was the one called out (by name) by Yzerman this offseason as a player who needed to take a big step next year. The reasons Zadina gets better linemates are probably several. One, we're extremely thin at center in the NHL and Yzerman and Blashill both routinely stated that they viewed Ras as a shutdown center and used him as such until late last season. Rasmussen started in the offensive zone less than any other regular on the team by a pretty sizeable margin. He was absolutely buried in the d-zone largely because of his perceived "role" as a shutdown center. Second, if you look at Ras's goals from last season you'll quickly notice he generates much of it himself. He's less reliant on his linemates. Seriously, watch how many times he beats a goalie clean on an oddman rush with Sundqvist or Erne as the other guy. Third, Zadina is extremely limited defensively and can only be used safely in offensive situations. The same thing is true of Suter and Fabbri (his two most common linemates last season). All of them rate out quite badly in terms of defensive metrics. So they got used on the offensive zone a lot with the expectation that it would limit their defensive lapses and maximize their strengths. Conversely, Ras's scoring came largely despite his usage. and he still managed more goals, points, and primary assists than Zadina.

You can almost guarantee he'll be on the development staff at some point in the near future. He's a ride or die Red Wing company man and they'll reward him accordingly. I've never been a bit bothered by having Lashoff in GR. I think 99% of all prospects need some time learning how to be a pro hockey player in a minor league, regardless of their skill level. And guys like Lashoff are the ones who teach them how to do it.

Like what? Btw Ras is doing all that in fewer minutes, more defensive situations, and worse line mates. Zadinas does less while being force fed premium minutes.

Not true at all. I was suggesting that if your most compelling argument in favor of Zadina is "he's cheap" then there are other cheap options on entry level contracts. If you're arguing that he actually played well and therefore deserves opportunity I'd counter with the fact that based on their performances last year ALL of Raymond, Bertuzzi, Vrana, Perron, Kubalik, Fabbri, Rasmussen, and Sundqvist are more deserving of ice time than Zadina. So I guess I'll agree that right now you can pencil him onto your 4th line. Except that he's bad defensively and on special teams so he's not really a fit there (and everyone would complain that it's setting him up for failure). So where do you put the "scorer who doesn't score"? My guess is you want him playing higher in the lineup and on special teams yeah? Again, what exactly did he ever do to earn those premium minutes? This Zadina thing reminds me so much of Teemu Pulkkinen. Prolific junior scorer who couldn't score in the NHL because he sucked, but everyone was POSITIVE that is was the coach/icetime/usage/linemates etc. So we hung onto him forever, until the whole world could see he sucked, and never got a single thing for all that "asset management".

Why should he get "one more chance"? What has he done to earn anything? How's he been good? So far his career trajectory is closer to Tomas Jurco than it is to a legit top six forward. He's been given AMPLE chances to succeed. Certainly more than he'll get now that we have a competitive roster. And you act like he's the ONLY asset we need to manage. There are other, more important, things for this team to do than move heaven and earth to jumpstart a pud. Michael Rasmuseen, for instance, had more goals, points, and primary assists than Zadina despite playing fewer (and harder) minutes. Yet I don't see the Zadina crowd clamboring for Ras to get more of Zadina's opportinities? Why? Here's what I'd do with him. Offer him a million dollars on a one year deal. Let him know he's competing for a roster spot in training camp. And that includes fourth line duties since he can't score and is supposedly "good" defensively. If he gets outplayed by 8 other wingers, wave him. If he gets outplayed by 6 other wingers, put him on the fourth line until he actually earns something. But what I absolutely would not do is spend a single additional second trying to drag another Holland Era loser to productivity at the expense of the team.

Agreed. So basically you're saying "Zadina's cheap, can fill the 3W spot, and still has some upside"? I'm saying Berggren is CHEAPER, can fill the 3W spot, and has upside. So does Sodorblom. Fabbri isn't cheap, but he's under contract nonetheless and has show he can outproduce Zadina after two knees surgeries. Why not after three? We don't have PERFECT options. But we have options that are just as good. So I have to wonder why Zadina is everyone's pet project yet again? I've never seen a fan base over-inflate a bad player so egregiously. He got outscored by Suter, Fabbri, Ras, Namestnikov, Hronek, and Gagner last year despite getting more favorable usage than ANY of those guys. He SUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKS. Edit: Noted offensive juggernaut Oskar Sundqvist had a significantly higher points per gave average than Zadina too, just for those keeping track of how badly that dude blows.

Your entire rationale for keeping him is that he's cheap and not absolutely terrible. I'm just saying there are other player who could occupy that roster spot who are cheaper and also probably not absolutely terrible. Lol @ Zadina scoring 40 points. He won't sniff the top six this year and will get limited powerplay time. We all saw how bad he sucked with Suter and Fabbri last year but you're expecting him to score MORE with Suter and Kubalik in FEWER minutes? Not likely.

Carter Mazur is f*cking awesome and will make everyone forget about Bertuzzi after he demands a trade in 6 months

I’m confused by the “sure he’s not great but he’s cheap, re-sign him” crowd. You know who projects as a 3W and is cheaper? Berggren. Sodorblom. Andreasson. If Zadina’s only value is that he’s cheap, there are cheaper players who potentially could suck just as much no? Or are we pretending he’s cheap AND kinda good now?

I do. He's bad, not getting better, not likely to get more opportunity than he had a year ago, and eating up a roster spot. I'd rather have Berggren/Fabbri/Sodorblom in that spot. Our farm system is really deep. We are no longer in a position where roster spots are gifted to scrubs just because nobody else wants to play for us and we have no talented prospects. I don't see any rationale for keeping a loser in your middle six just because he's cheap. I also don't think you're right that GMs value guys like him because they're young and have upside. Look at all the players who are better than Zadina who went unqualified the last couple offseasons?

Most players said the same thing about Yzerman. Apparently he very rarely addressed the team during his time as Captain. In Yzerman's "NHL 100" video package Brendan Shanahan (and I think McCarty) explicitly talks about this too.

I don't think the point was the nationality. I think the point is that the leagues are better. Zadina, or instance, came to the CHL to play and I think you could argue he was trained badly. Might have been better off training in a Euro men's league. Svechnikov, same story. I think the CHL is trash, they just succeed because they have the best talent pool. I also think the CHL agreement keeps guys in their leagues longer than some of them should be. Plenty of instances in which guys are rushed to the NHL too early because they're too good for the CHL and can't go to the AHL.

It definitely makes me wonder why he did, given his apparently preference for SHL talent.

Yzerman knows something (else) that Holland didn't. Canadian Junior hockey leagues aren't producing the best NHL caliber prospects anymore. There's been a noticeable shift away from the CHL to the SHL and USHL under Yzerman. https://detroithockeynow.com/2022/08/13/anatomy-of-the-yzerplan-holland-vs-yzerman-red-wings-drafts/

Tired: Good looking, clean cut, square jawed, Canadian puds. Wired: Beady-eyed, slack jawed, mullet sporting, American winners. https://detroithockeynow.com/2022/08/12/carter-mazur-three-points-usa-wjc-detroit-red-wings-prospect-denver/

I agree with a lot of what you're saying but I have some issue with the bolded. You're making it seem like he's been dealt a bad hand and he's out there making the best of it. But that's not really the case. He's been dealt a pretty good hand (top six, offensive zone starts, powerplay time) and consistently done nothing with it. He's never had to earn opportunity in the same way that Joe Veleno (for instance) has. So of course he's been a good teammate/had a good attitude. Look at how everyone talks about him. When he sucks the entire conversation revolves around "how can we change the entire lineup of the team to get Zadina going". It's never "Zadina needs to work his way up from the fourth line through his play". The same thing used to happen with Brendan Smith. Without a hint of irony his slappies all thought he should play with Lidstrom/Kronwall to "get him going" without ever considering whether it was good for the team to have a loser on their top pairing.

Zadina, in particular, was given all the ice time a guy could ever want last season. Lots of games in the top six. Played with Larkin, Bert, Fabbri, Raymond, Vrana, Suter. Power play time. Favorable zone starts. His issue isn't lack of opportunity. His issue is that he blows. He's Mikael Samuelsson 2.0. I'm not trying to air you out or anything, I've just noticed this narrative emerging that Zadina needs more opportunity to succeed. But he's had the opportunity and has been routinely outplayed by guys with the same chances (or less). This year he'll probably start on the 3rd line with Suter and Kubalik against inferior competition and given 2nd powerplay duties. If he fails to make an impact I presume he'll be traded/not qualified.

I might be mistaken, but I think it depends on the league. For almost all Euros the rules are the same as they are for North American players. But in the case of Russians I think the team retains their rights longer. I'm not sure if it's forever, but longer. I remember the Wings still owned Alexander Kadeykin's rights a few years ago when he was still well into his mid-20s.

I'm genuinely confused, who are you talking about here?