kipwinger

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Posts posted by kipwinger


  1. 1 hour ago, marcaractac said:

    I'm not saying he is playing well enough for promotion to a top 9 NHL role. I'm saying he is playing far better now than he did early in the season, and that if you don't think that's the case, it's because you haven't been watching. You keep twisting what I say as if I'm saying he is NHL ready when I clearly stated he isn't. So perhaps read my entire posts instead of spot picking certain lines that go along with this argument you are basically having with yourself at this point. 

    Literally nobody is saying Veleno is NHL ready, yet you are arguing as if everyone is saying he is.  

     

    Am I eating crazy pills?  I responded to someone who definitely did ask if Veleno was NHL ready.  Then you responded to my criticisms of his game, saying that he was better than he was earlier in the season. That's how we got here.  I never addressed you once until you responded to my discussion with someone else and immediately changed the narrative to something different. 

    Whether or not Veleno has improved over the course of the season is irrelevant to the discussion I was having.  He's not good enough, offensively or defensively, to be in the NHL as of today.  That's what was being discussed before you parachuted into the middle of things.

    It's not like I sought you out to talk about Veleno's improvement and then changed the topic to whether he's NHL ready.  In fact it's the exact opposite.  You jumped into a discussion about whether he's NHL ready and then changed the topic to his improvement. 


  2. 9 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

    That was what YOU said, I just forgot to put quotations around it. My bad...

     

    It doesn't matter who said it first.  You're suggesting that the way to get him to stop "rushing passes" (as CRL desribed it first) is for him to...wait for it...rush passes.  You're grasping at straws. 


  3. 12 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

    Which is all he did... Of course he's bad defensively. He has a team worst +/-...

    Fact is, his defensive game has grown leaps and bounds since the beginning of the season. Like Larkin, the organization want him to concentrate on that part of his game, and he's starting to mold into more of a 200 foot center because of it.

    He's not ready yet, and likely won't make the team out of camp. But by this time next year (when we trade Filppula at the deadline), I fully expect him to be up full time. 

    He was moved out of a defensive role when he was swapped with Turgeon.  And they did that because he was totally overmatched.  If he looks better now, it's only because he's being asked to do less defending. Just like Detroit, GR uses their checking line player in defensive roles and their top six players in offensive ones. 

    GR posts their lines before every game.  Go look.  Over the course of the season Veleno was moved off the defensive line and put on an offensive one with two offensive players in Terry and Svech.

    Edit:  For the record, I've never mentioned plus/minus at all.  You can't seem to shut up about it however.

     


  4. 15 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

    The original question had nothing to do with the portion of your post I was mainly replying to. I was responding to your assessment of his AHL performance, which is only correct if all you have done was look at stats. 

    This is the same sh*t that KRsmith says.  It's starting to get old.  I watch as many games as I can watch, and I check the box scores on the games I miss. Sue me. 

    My assessment from that observation is that Veleno isn't scoring enough at the AHL level to justify a promotion to a top 9 role in the NHL.  And I'm not seeing some top defender either. He's been moved to a scoring line, with two scoring wingers (Terry and Svech). He's not being utilized as a matchup guy (a la Glendening).  H's not taking defensive zone draws. Turgeon and Pearson are doing those things. Veleno WAS on a checking line, and they moved him away from that defensive responsibility when they swapped him with Turgeon (who was the 2C).  He is on the PK, which is a credit to him, but so was AA when he played in GR so I'd take it with a grain of salt.  AND he still gets scored on a lot against AHL caliber scoring lines. 

    So I'm not sure what you two are watching.  If he's produced a bunch more points, or started shutting down opposition scoring lines, and I just missed it somehow then I'm happy for you (or KRsmith) to prove me wrong with something other than "we watch more games than you".  But it sure doesn't seem like he's ready for a promotion to the NHL based on his play up to this point. 


  5. Just now, marcaractac said:

     

    You also said allllll that extra stuff in the bold. That is the part I was following up on. Particularly with the upsized word. The initial question has nothing to do with it when you add a bunch of analysis that is no longer applicable to his current level of play. 

    Why is it no longer applicable?  He still isn't producing much offensively, and he still gets scored on more than anyone else in GR.  I agree he's probably better than he was at the beginning of the season, but he's still not good enough to be a 2C in the NHL because he doesn't produce enough offense and he gets scored on a lot.  I stand by it.  It's still a valid assessment of his game, even if it's marginally less true than it was a few months ago.


  6. 2 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

    I mean, sure, but I just wanted to put it out there that he has shown steady improvement. NHL ready? No. But nothing about his progress this year says he won't be at some point. Your explanation as to why he isn't NHL ready certainly explains his performance earlier in the season, but is very much incorrect based on the last month or so. At this point, I'd argue that his main deficiency is consistency.  

    That was never the question.  The original question asked was "Do you think he's ready for the NHL".  And I said no, he's not. 

    On 2/13/2020 at 11:37 AM, kliq said:

    I don’t watch any GR games, but I do follow them. Is Veleno ready for that spot?

     

    Meaning the 2C spot on the Red Wings.  That's what I was responding too.  Nobody said he wasn't going to make the NHL someday.  I said he's not good enough to do so without being a liability right now because he's got a lot of growing to do.


  7. 2 hours ago, marcaractac said:

    The bold basically defines why he isn't calm and has no poise. Sure he had it in junior, but he doesn't have it in the NHL. Hell, he can't consistently show it in the AHL yet. This is why I think he should stay in the AHL until he could prove he is just too good to stay there. He has yet to do that.

    The bold also makes no sense, and is therefore a perfect example of KRsmith logic.  Cholo needs to "get rid of the puck quicker" so he doesn't "rush".  Lol. 


  8. 2 hours ago, marcaractac said:

    Based on the first half of the season, I'd agree with this. But the kid has been steadily improving since the WJC. My guess is he finishes the season strong and starts off in the AHL again next season. That is when he'll make the case to be called up and start in Detroit on the wing, similar to Larkin. 

    Sounds like you're agreeing with everything I said, because my only point was that he's not ready to play in the NHL because he has deficiencies in his game.  So we're on the same page. 


  9. 2 hours ago, kliq said:

    I don’t watch any GR games, but I do follow them. Is Veleno ready for that spot?

     

    The short answer?  No.  Veleno is abysmal defensively at the AHL level and needs to round out that part of his game.  He's getting TORCHED at 5on5.  Plus his offense is only middling.  About half of his 7 goals are either junk goals or else situations where someone else did the heavy lifting and Veleno simply finished off the play.  Offensively he's no better than fellow AHL rookie Chase Pearson, who's scoring about as much in significantly fewer minutes. 


  10. 1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

    No, they're way worse this season. 

    2019 season

    21st in goals scored

    27th in goals allowed

    19th on the PP

    28th on the PK

     

    2020 season

    31st in goals scored (dead last and 19 goals behind LA)

    31st in goals allowed (dead last and 26 goals behind Jersey)

    30th on the PP

    26th on the PK

     

    So only the PK slightly improved.  Bad as they were in 2019, nobody was talking about record breaking +/- numbers for the modern era.  Or the greatest goal differential the NHL has seen in some time.  This team has significantly gotten worse.  Everyone is part of the problem, including Larkin, Mantha, and Bertuzzi.  

    Those rankings could change because we got worse, or because other bottom feeder teams got better. 


  11. 4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

     

    Mantha is too streaky and hasn't played much this season.  I'm curious to see if he can keep the same production as before his injury.  He also doesn't do anything else.  Larkin has other responsibilities.  Those responsibilities are harder to meet when the defense is so poor at positioning and decision making.  Imagine having to play center for this team?  Mantha can just float around and worry about offense.  

    As for Bertuzzi, I'm not sure why he's playing better.  Maybe he was underachieving last year?  I forgot where he started last season in the lineup.  I know he ended up on the top line to finish the season.  It could be he just needed more opportunities to show he can score.    

    I dunno man, I just think the team was equally as bad (or close to it) as it was a year ago with largely the same personnel.  Lose a Nyquist, Vanek or De La Rose, add a Fabbri, Zadina, Filppula, and Perlini. Lose a Jensen, add a Nemeth. These are all basically marginal changes.  Maybe that's the reason why Larkin's production is way down but that doesn't seem obvious to me because these aren't huge differences.  That's all I'm saying.


  12. Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

    Sure seems like a lot of guys might be departing, which should make some folks happy. Handemark and Stromwall would be warm bodies and healthy competition. I could see these deals being contingent on whether or not Yzerman can make the moves he wants at the deadline. Like if he can't move Helm or something similar then maybe he doesn't finalize this Handemark contract.

    Yeah, I presume both of these guys are just stop gaps for GR.  Presumably they're both better than whomever would be called up from Toledo.  But you're right, if Yzerman doesn't move out some NHL players then Ras and Veleno don't get called up and there is not a spot (or need) for Stormwall and Handemark.


  13. 4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

    This isn't the 1980's.  Linemates rarely stay together during the season.  Also, having injuries throughout the lineup affects how the other team matches up and how much pressure the top line has.  So you can't say the other players don't matter just because they don't play with Larkin.  Last year, AA provided good secondary scoring.  This year, that hasn't happened.  Nielsen scored 35 points last year.  He's on pace to put up enforcer type numbers this year.  Hence, more pressure on the top line.    

    Also, the powerplay will often have different units.  Not just the same lineup throughout the year.  Not having AA and Vanek may affect what Larkin can do on the powerplay.  Last season, this team was 19th on the powerplay.  This year, they're next to last.  Mike Green has played the same amount of games this season as he did all last year.  However, last year he had 26 points and this year he has 9.  Kronwall is also not around.  They did gain Hronek, but overall the powerplay had a substantial decline.  How much of that are you willing to pin just on Larkin?  

    Understood, but if all of that is responsible for depressing production then it should be having the same effect on Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, etc. but those guys are producing better than a year ago so I'm not sure why "this team sucks" is driving down Larkin's numbers but other guys are performing better. 

    And just to be clear, I've already stated that I'm not sure whether Larkin is the 60 point guy he looks like this year, or the 75 point guy he looked like a year ago.  So this isn't some attempt to bash Larkin.  I think his ceiling is still very much up for debate.


  14. 3 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

    I did exactly this and found exactly nothing

    https://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/hockey/a/MRk1jK/nara-att-komma-overens-med-klassiska-nhl-klubben

    Translates to "...close to signing with classic NHL club", meaning Detroit.  Another depth move.  I think Yzerman is planning to bring up everyone after the deadline, which means lots of trades/waivers coming up.


  15. 6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

    Learn how to read dumbass. I never indicated that you said that. Unless your past name is "Others"...

    You criticized me saying: "Typical Kip avoids responding to an entire post...".  The "big and strong" comment was in the post I was supposed to be responding to in it's entirety, according to your logic.  If I don't actually need to respond to the entire post, as you're now indicating, then I'm confused about your "typical Kip..." post.

    So you're mad that I didn't respond to your entire post, even though a portion of that post was directed at CRL?  Ok man.


  16. 6 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

    Mantha played a lot more games last season than he's on pace for this year.  Athanasiou has been hurt and has been poor even when healthy.  Nyquist isn't here anymore and he scored a lot last year.  I don't see this forward talent you're talking about this season.  You lose Nyquist, gain Fabrri, and have more injuries to Athanasiou and Mantha.  Who else is relevant here?  Filppula replacing Vanek?  That doesn't seem to be a net gain.   

    AA, Vanek, Filppula don't matter because none of them played with Larkin anway. Matter of fact, Nyquist doesn't really either because while he DID play with Larkin, Dylan produced more after Nyquist was traded.  Your point about Mantha is valid, but misleading since he'll end up with about the same amount of games if he doesn't miss anymore for the remainder of the season.  I'd also argue that Bertuzzi is better than he was a year ago too. 

    But my overall point is that Larkin is not playing with worse players this year compared to last, so his production dive can't be explained by his linemates.


  17. 9 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

    Leading scorer for Malmo. #8 scorer in the SHL. Interesting I guess.

    If Handemark and Stromwall rumors are true it's almost like Yzerman is letting Andersson build this team.

    Agreed that Kip should respond to all your points, but also no one is taking anything out on you, get real.

    Whoa, whoa, whoa...I don't need to respond to every insane thing this guy says.  Particularly when he makes things up.  For instance, I never said Rasmussen was better than Veleno because he's "big and strong' as KRsmith indicated in his post.  So I feel no need to respond to that point. 

    1 minute ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

    Twitter , which is why i said i dont know if its true

    i highly doubt we went and signed Two guys from shl 25-27 yrs of age ... id guess only one of those 2 guys will be signed but we shall see

    Who's saying it on twitter? 


  18. 4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

    Larkin has been underwhelming, but last year I thought he overachieved.  That top line got hot late in the season didn't it?  It'd be curious to see how many points he scored over the last month of the regular season.

    His teammates aren't that good even on the top line.  Mantha has been hurt a lot.  Hasn't Larkin played with Glendenning at times?  And let's not forget that Fabbri was a 4th line scrub for St. Louis.  He's playing better in Detroit because of more ice time and because our forwards are so bad that he can just step in and look dominant compared to his teammates.  Everyone likes Bertuzzi but he's not a top line forward on any other team in hockey.  Zadina is a rookie. 

    I'd like more from Larkin but I'm also the guy that wants to only bang hot chicks.  Doesn't always work that way.  I can give Larkin a pass somewhat due to the lack of top end talent around him.  You cannot expect him to play like a 1C when you don't have a 1W on either wing.  

    Larkin had the same lack of talent around him last year and he played well.  Actually I think you could argue there's more forward talent on the team this year than last.  Lack of top end talent around him may explain why his numbers aren't as good as other top centers on other teams, but it doesn't explain why his numbers have plummeted relative to his play last season. 


  19. 20 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

    I never said anything about draft rankings not being an indication, I said it's not a guarantee. Which is why I pointed to the many examples of player X, drafted in the 20's-30's being better than play Y, drafted top 10. I've never in any way implied that lower drafted players are as likely, or more likely to succeed than higher drafted players.

    Both Scott Wheeler and Max Bultman of the Athletic had Veleno ranked one spot higher than Rasmussen in their recent rankings (past month). I suggest that I think Veleno will be the better player long-term, and get attacked, because "RaSmUsSeN hAs MoRe PoInTs"... I also say that it's entirely possible that Rasmussen "could" end up the better player long-term. I just want both to succeed. Others believe that's impossible, because "RaSmUsSeN iS sO bIg AnD sTrOnG"...

    Go ahead and bet on Rasmussen. No one cares. Just quit bitching and complaining when someone bets on Veleno.

    You're not getting "attacked" so quit acting like a p*ssy.  You're on a hockey discussion board, you made a statement based on pretty flimsy evidence, and you got called on it.  Stop posting if you don't like people disagreeing with you, or better yet, grow up.


  20. 1 hour ago, ely s said:

    it´s a bit annoying to be honest. Unfortunately CRL has a knack for asking provocative questions (some dumb as well) and twisting the things people say, which just causes endless repetitions.

    something to think about: Rasmussen already has a year of NHL experience and a body ready for the man´s game. In the moment he might be the better player just through that. In the future?  f*ck knows

    and yes, a #10 pick is not assured to become the better player than any other first round selection in his draft class. After the first 6-7 picks it´s more or less hoping to be right imo.

    Nobody said that.  I don't think anyone, including CRL, thinks that a 10 pick is "assured" or "guaranteed" to be better than anyone else.  But that's true for the 1st overall as well.  There are no guarantees.  Busts happen. 

    It's a probability based evaluation. If you looked at all the 10th overall picks, in all the various pro sports leagues over the years, and compared them to the 30th overall picks the group of higher drafted players will generally have performed better.

    Of course there are exceptions, but they're rare.  Suggesting that draft rankings aren't an indication of talent because David Pastrnak turned out better than Nick Ritchie (for example) is dumb. Because why stop there?  Pavel Datsyuk is better than Vincent Lecavalier, but anybody who thinks the 171st pick is even close to as likely to succeed as the 1st overall is delusional. 

    The real question then becomes, is there reason to think Veleno and Rasmussen are the exceptions and not the rule?  Anyone who says "yes" better have some pretty compelling evidence to think so. Instead,  based on all the information available to this point you'd be dumb to bet on it because Rasmussen has consistently been the better player.  And it's that difference in ability, track record, and upside, that made Rasmussen the 10th overall and Veleno the 30th overall.


  21. I think the jury is still out on Larkin being a 1C. I don't think we know what player Dylan Larkin is.  Is he the guy who scored 73 points last year against top competition and was a stud 200 ft. player?  Or is he all that but likely to score around 60 pts.? 


  22. 6 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

    I'd like to scoot on down to GR and knock that Ben Simon around I tell ya what. Not playing top 10 pick future 2C Veleno in favor of future 3rd line winger shoulda been drafted 15 picks lower Rasmussen? Its objectionable way outta line malarchy. Does this guy need glasses to see velenos doing all the heavy lifting out there or something? Cause id like to put my own pair of knuckles under that hombres chin bone if u catch my drift there fella. 

     

    He should probably watch more Griffins games.