krsmith17

You should also point out though that at 5on5, for the most part Athanasiou is getting matched up against 2nd/3rd line / 2nd/3rd pair competition, while Mantha is getting matched up against 1st line / 1st pair competition. I don't think there's a huge gap between Mantha and Athanasiou in terms of pure goal scoring ability, though I would give the slight edge to Mantha. Mantha has been a better goal scorer at ever level, including when they played together in Grand Rapids. I don't think Athanasiou would score quite as much as Mantha playing on the top line. At the same time, I don't think Mantha would score quite as much as Athanasiou playing on the 2nd/3rd line. Athanasiou is simply better at creating opportunities for himself with his speed. AA can and has taken full advantage of lower level competition, which is why I see him an ideal middle 6 winger. Mantha is in every way a top line winger in my opinion.

A "goal scorer" is a player that is known for his goal scoring. A "playmaker" is a player that is known for his playmaking. Does Larkin score goals? Yes. Is that what he's known for? No. Same goes for the rest of the guys you mentioned in my opinion. I'm not even touching the Ericsson comment... I never once said Larkin was one of our three goal scorers. The three goal scorers that I was referring to are Mantha, to a lesser extent, Athanasiou, and hopefully soon, Zadina.

C'mon man, you can't be serious... Your definition of a goal scorer is any player that can score goals? I guess all those players are "playmakers" too because they can pass the puck / get assists?... My definition of a goal scorer would be a player that primarily score goals. None of those players are on the same level as our three "goal scorers" in my opinion.

So basically you think any forward is a "goal scorer"... Larkin is not a "goal scorer". Bertuzzi is not a "goal scorer". Rasmussen is not a "goal scorer". Veleno is not a "goal scorer". We have Mantha, Athanasiou and Zadina. That's it. Mantha being the best of the three as of now.

Borderline stud? Again, that's where we disagree. I would say Trouba > Ristolainen. Also, the majority of the Trouba talk from me was pre-draft. Now that we have Seider and Hronek on the right side, I don't see a major need to add there. I'd still be open to signing Trouba as a free agent next summer (if he is a UFA at that time), but that's giving up no assets. It wouldn't be as big a blow if we didn't get him now anyway. What do we need more than defense right now? In my opinion, pure goal scorers. We have a lot of promising young players / prospects, but none that play the game Mantha does. Big, strong, power-forward that can snipe from anywhere. He will score 30, the only question for me is will he score 35+ on the regular. I think he could, and he showed what he is capable of in the last 30 games he played.

Yes, his trade value is definitely at an all time high. I wonder if there are any young, up and coming teams in the middle of a rebuild that would be interested in a 24 year old 30 goal scorer... Sure. Isn't that why pretty much any hockey trade goes down? Does that make it the right decision though? I asked earlier (wasn't answered...), do you think the Hall trade was a good one? Or was it a dumb trade that happened only because the Oilers felt they had a need on defense and a surplus of wingers? We don't need Ristolainen and we certainly don't need to trade one of our best young players just entering his prime. Yeah, Yzerman would have to answer that question, but in my opinion, I think we need a pure goal scorer like Mantha more than we need another top 4 right-handed defenseman like Ristolainen. I've asked this question several times now, but if we were to acquire Ristolainen, where does he fit into our future defense core? Who is he pushing out?

So you either have a borderline elite winger that can pot 35+ goals, or a really good top six winger that can pot 25-30 goals. Win-Win in my opinion. Either way, I wouldn't trade him for Ristolainen, and it's not even so much to do with the player as it is to do with the type of player. He just doesn't fill a major need in my opinion.

Mantha scored 8 goals, 7 assists (15 points) in his last 8 games of last season. He then scored 7 goals, 7 assists (14 points) in 9 games at the World Championships. Sure, you can say "that was just another one of his hot streaks", or you can believe that maybe, just maybe, he's starting to put it all together and could be a dominant force through his prime years. I choose to believe the latter. I obviously don't think he's going to be close to a 2 points per game player, but I do think he could be close to a point per game player, and take over games and eventually playoff series', the way Franzen once did. I'd just hope that the cold streaks would be a little fewer and further between... But my question is why not have Ristolainen part of that top 4 if he's as good as some people seem to believe? The bold I agree with.

Key word, that they just acquired. They acquired these defensemen for a reason, and if they did so to trade a 24 year old top 4 defenseman, is that a player we should be giving up our best goal scorer for? It's funny that you were using Zadina's +/- against him despite being one of the youngest players in the entire league, but you don't think Ristolainen's league worst +/- is reflective on his defensive game... So hypothetically, who plays their off side between Seider, Hronek and Ristolainen?

No. Again, I don't want Ristolainen... What are you talking about? Hronek was a 2nd round pick too. Does he hold the same value as a 2nd round pick now? McIsaac was regarded as a steal in the 2nd round. I'm not saying I wouldn't trade McIsaac (or a 2nd round pick), but I wouldn't trade that package for Ristolainen. If I felt Ristolainen was a player we really needed, I'd probably pull the trigger, but that's where we disagree. With the emergence of Hronek over the past year and the addition of Seider last month, I'm not giving up premium assets for another top 4 right-handed defenseman. A few years ago, I would have been all over a similar trade. Now, not so much.

I don't get your drift at all... What does Mantha have to do with Trouba? Are you saying that Mantha wants to get traded or bolt to Montreal when he becomes a UFA? It's not just about his atrocious +/-, it's all of his underlying stats. Again, I don't know a ton about this kid, but from what I've seen and read, he's far from a legit top pair defenseman. Why would Buffalo trade him if he were? Everyone knows how difficult it is to acquire big, steady, minute munching defensemen. There's obviously a reason he's on the trade block, and I'm not trading our best goal scorer for that player. I don't think Mantha is "untouchable", but I wouldn't trade him for Ristolainen. That's just me though.

Sure, that's your opinion. I think you're undervaluing Mantha. Also, calling McIsaac a bust before he's ever played a pro game is dumb. The 2nd round pick, I could care less about. A legit top 4 defenseman that for whatever reason Buffalo wants to trade...

For a player we don't have a real need for? Not much. I think Mantha is good value for Ristolainen, but I personally wouldn't make that trade.

It's not just about points. Ristolainen is a defenseman that doesn't really play much defense. His underlying numbers aren't great. Mantha's underlying numbers are very good. Ristolainen could be a very good defenseman in a few years, but he's not exactly what this team needs right now. Goal scoring is something this team needs. Hence the reason most Wings fans would be upset by trading the teams best goal scorer. With Seider and Hronek looking like legit top 4 right-handed defensemen of the future, where does Ristolainen fit in? I'm not saying it wouldn't be a "fair trade", it's just not a trade I would be looking to make right now. Now ^that^ trade would be extremely dumb for this team.

In 74 games. In 80 games. Seriously though, Mantha and Athanasiou are our two best goal scorers right now, and both are more than capable of 30+ a season. I'd be thrilled if either reach 35, but I'd personally give the slight edge to Mantha. We'll see.

We will never be able to have a real conversation if you refuse to take pace into consideration. Mantha will score 30 goals. So no, Zadina alone would not cover the loss of Mantha. You also refuse to answer several questions I asked pertaining to the conversation, so whatever...

Considering he was close to that pace last season, I'd be shocked if he doesn't reach it this season (assuming he's healthy). I expect 30-35 goals, 60-70 points. IF he is that player through his prime, would you trade him for Ristolainen? I wouldn't.

No thanks. Oh okay, so you're going to have two players in the organization do what one player can do. Well then in that case, Hronek and Cholowski can do what *insert trade target* can do.

So you don't think a 24 year old (soon to be 25) that scored at a 30 goal pace can hit 30+ goals if healthy for an entire season? Yeah, okay... Sergachev would probably be one of the defensemen on my 10 player list, so yeah, I might consider trading Mantha for Sergachev. Maybe. But again, it's filling one hole by creating another. I think it's more likely that Cholowski (or McIsaac) could fill the role of Sergachev (lite), than anyone in the organization being able fill the role of Mantha. Defensemen are perceived as being more valuable than scoring wingers, but I don't necessarily share that mindset. Do you think Adam Larsson is more valuable than Taylor Hall? I'll admit that I don't know a ton on Ristolainen, and I'm not totally against trading for him, depending on the cost. What would you be willing to give up in a trade for him?

Defense is more important than goal scoring? Says who? Goals win hockey games. Defense help win hockey games. I'd say defensemen are viewed as more valuable than wingers, but highly skilled power forwards are extremely valuable. It would be beyond dumb to trade Mantha right now. Mantha scored at a 30 goal pace this past season. He's only entering his prime now, and could easily put up 35 this season if he stays healthy. What Mantha brings can't just be replaced from within the organization. I have high hopes for Zadina, but he's likely not going to surpass Mantha in the next few seasons, and even if he does, it's never a bad thing to have two or more wingers that can pot north of 30 goals. Larkin has arrived, but I don't believe he's fulfilled his full potential yet. Same goes for Mantha. So both are still "getting there" in my opinion.

What does any of this have to do with actually putting the puck in the net? Mantha is our best goal scorer. There's no two ways about it. Yes, center > winger, so in terms of overall value, Larkin > Mantha and Athanasiou. I agree that we shouldn't trade either right now, unless it's a deal we can't refuse. Those types of deals don't come along very often. Regarding which player you'd be willing to trade first, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think the majority of Red Wings fans would trade Athanasiou first, as well as Red Wings management. I also think general managers across the league would be asking about Mantha before Athanasiou. Hypothetically, if it came down to one or the other in a package for a top pair defenseman it would be AA for me every time. It's not going to happen though, so it's a moot point.

Cool. There are probably about 10 for me. None of the teams of those defensemen would trade them though, so what's the point? Why trade away your best goal scorer to fill one hole and create another? There also aren't many defensemen in the league I'd trade Larkin for right now. I guess I'm a Larkin "hypeboy" too... Nope. Mantha is our best goal scorer. He's been the better goal scorer in junior (CHL), minors (AHL) and pro (NHL). What makes you think Athanasiou or Larkin are better goal scorers? Nah, I wouldn't. I just don't see the point in acquiring another right-handed defenseman right now. Our top two young defensemen (Seider and Hronek) are both right-handed. We lack goal scoring and Athanasiou is another guy that can put the puck in the net. There's no way Buffalo or Dallas would trade Dahlin or Heiskanen, but if we could somehow acquire a defenseman like that, I'd obviously do it.

This doesn't even really have much to do with Ristolainen for me. There aren't many defensemen in the league I'd trade Mantha for right now. I still think he's only scratched the surface. I could easily see him flirt with 40 goals over the next few seasons (as early as next season). I wouldn't be against acquiring Ristolainen, I just wouldn't even consider trading Mantha right now. I mean sure, if they offer the other Rasmus, I'd do it, but not for this Rasmus...

Offer sheets can work if done properly. If a team put in an offer sheet on Kapanen for around $4.2M, Kapanen would have definitely signed it, since the Leafs were only offering $3-3.5M, and I highly doubt the Leafs would have been able to match, given their cap situation. Kapanen would be worth the contract and the 2nd round pick compensation. Sure, in theory the Leafs could match, and attempt to trade him immediately after for more than a 2nd round pick, but realistically, would Kapanen get a whole lot more than a 2nd round pick? Maybe, maybe a late first, but probably not.

In with the young, out with the old. I'm just looking forward to the "Official 2021 Offseason Rebuild Thread"... That's when things should really start to get interesting.