krsmith17

I meant if Holmstrom were 22 now, the same player he was, with the same wonky skating he had throughout his career, he wouldn't ever score 50 points in the league. Hischier, Patrick, Heiskanen, Makar, Pettersson, Glass, Andersson, Mittelstadt, Tippett, Vilardi, Necas, Suzuki, Foote, Brannstrom, Valimaki, Liljegren, Norris, Thomas, Chytil, Yamamoto, Joseph, Frost, Jokiharju, Tolvanen, Kostin, Timmons, Hague, Robertson, Texier, Formenton, Volkov, Ferraro, Comtois, Mitchell, Geekie, Rathbone, Bryson, Bemstrom, Batherson, Kalynuk have all been at or above Rasmussen production wise. That's not to say I would take all of them above Rasmussen, but I would take a good portion of those guys above Ras without question. I'll keep that in mind...

Holmstrom was another late round gem, which is sort of the point. I don't think anyone has a problem with Rasmussen. I certainly don't. He was just taken too high for my liking. All of these big, strong, net front guys, can be had in the later rounds. Again, there's nothing special about Rasmussen's game, outside of his size, and ability in front of the net. If Ras were taken in the latter half of the 1st round, or 2nd round, everyone would be saying it was a great pick. 9th overall is literally the only debate for me.

I added the "Even with prime Zetterberg and Datsyuk" after, against my better judgement... He might be able to do it with those two, but Holmstrom would not put up 50 points seasons on this team, at the same age as Rasmussen, growing with this team. I think I could easily name 18-20 players that are indisputable, and another 5-7 players that are debatable. I have no issue with evaluating young players. I do have issue with completely writing off young players before they play a single game in the league. Like you did with Zadina. But I'm not getting into that again... No. I wasn't aware of that. As far as I knew he was an oft injured 30-40 point center that had a career high of 41 points in a season. I liked the Hanzal comp stylistically, but I don't think Ras will ever be a 50-60 point pace 2nd line center... I think he top out as a 30-40 point 3C/W, which is fine. Just not great value at 9th overall.

In that case, Veleno is great and Rasmussen is useless... Fight me @The 91 of Ryans !!!

To be fair, Holmstrom would never put up 50 points in todays NHL either. Even with prime Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Hanzal seems like a fair player comp. I think even 15th overall is a little generous though. I'd say around 20-25ish. I hope you're right, but I don't see it. Again, no one (besides maybe isthefuture) thinks Rasmussen sucks. Just that he was taken too high. Most thought so at the time, and with hindsight, it's even more clear. Also, Zadina >>> Rasmussen and I can't even see the biggest Zadina detractors debating that...

Most 6th round picks may never play in the NHL, but if I want to draft size, that's around where I'd target one... Who would you compare Rasmussen to? Name some of the big men that have been drafted in the top 10, that have been wrecking shop in the playoffs... I honestly can't think of a single one, but if there is one, there's about a dozen small, soft, skilled players drafted in the top 10, that dominate in the playoffs... Byfuglien played wing on that Hawks Cup run. It wasn't until after he was put back on D. Point is, Rasmussen will never be a 50 point player, regardless of position, and he won't be that physical presence you're talking about on that Cup run. I never said you're "supposed to take size at that position". I said if I were to target size (I wouldn't), it would be in the later rounds. The only big, mean player I can think of that was drafted in a similar range, and is still with the team that drafted him is Tom Wilson. Ras ain't Tom Wilson. Most every other player was traded for or signed via free agency. Seider is MUCH more skilled than Rasmussen. And Brian Boyle isn't far off what I expect out of Rasmussen, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I just wouldn't waste a top 10 pick on that sort of player.

Why would we undo the Seider draft? Seider has proven (so far) to be a great pick. Rasmussen, not so much. I'm not against drafting size. I'm against drafting purely based on size. There's literally nothing "special" about Rasmussen, except his size... Again, Elmer Soderblom...

Elmer Soderblom, drafted 159th overall. That's where you get your big man. Not 9th overall.

I agree that Rasmussen could be a solid piece in a Cup run, but don't kid yourself. Ras will never be a prime Byfuglien, in production or physicality. Also, again, you don't waste a top 10 pick on size. You know where Big Buff was drafted? 245th overall. Not 9th overall...

You don't need to waste a top 10 pick on size. That's where you draft "soft" skilled players. You can add size literally any offseason in free agency.

Yeah, Necas over Rasmussen would have been really nice right about now... Completely agree.

I think Zadina could get there. Maybe not elite, but a legitimate top winger in the league. Raymond definitely has the potential to be elite. If you have two top end wingers, and a bunch of other really good wingers, I think you can win with Larkin-Veleno-Ras down the middle. This core that Yzerman is building is still extremely young. They have a ton of room to grow. Of course we'd like to add another bonified top center, but I don't see one available at 6 in this year's draft, and depending on what happens in next year's draft lottery, we may not get one then either.

After the explanation it makes sense, but based on what I said and your response, it didn't. It's like me saying that I think Johansson can be a Kronwall-level player, and you saying you'd prefer Lidstrom... Anyway, it doesn't matter. Again, I don't think that's necessarily a "need". It's a want. Every team wants better players. Team's have won it all without elite centers, and team's with elite centers get bounced in the 1st round every year. There are many ways to build a team. Of course Yzerman would love to add an elite center, as well as an(other) elite defenseman and goalie, but it just isn't that easy. Unless we get lucky in the draft / draft lottery, it's going to be tough to find a center to slot above Larkin.

I think you can build a forward core with good, not great centers, as long as they're surrounded by elite wingers. In saying that, I definitely wouldn't be opposed to trying Raymond at center. He has all the tools, and like I mentioned previously, reminds me of Point in a lot of ways.

I simply said that if everything goes right, I can see Veleno becoming a Cirelli-level center. Your response was, you'd rather see Yzerman obtain a Point-level center. The comment just didn't make much sense to me... I don't think we "need" better center depth than Larkin-Veleno-Rasmussen, but it sure wouldn't hurt. What we "need" is continued growth and development from those three guys. Obviously anyone would want a better center slotted on top, bumping all three down a line, but it's not likely unless we get extremely lucky in the draft, or draft lottery (Wright). Quality centers in the 6-12 range, sure. But top 10 centers in the league at that range, highly unlikely.

And he wasn't wrong. Acquiring a Point-level player isn't easy. I think Raymond could become that player (except on the wing). Sure, but even through the draft, you're likely not getting a Point-level center without a top 3-5 pick and a bit of luck in the selection and development. I just think it was kind of odd (stating the obvious) to say that you would rather a Point-level center than a Veleno(or Cirelli)-level center...

Well, sure... I'd also rather a top 10 center than a top 50 center... Where should Yzerman obtain this top 10 center?

Jesus. Three more years? For some reason I was thinking it was just two. I'm not sure I'd take on that contract, as I highly doubt Tampa would be willing to pay the high ask. The starting point would have to be a 1st round pick and a top prospect (Foote / Alnefelt). I think on this team, given middle six minutes, Johnson would be a 30-40 point center. If everything goes right for Veleno, I can see him becoming a Cirelli level 2C.

I think you may be a little bit anti-Veleno... No? By the way, I agree with marc in that we should probably go after another middle six center, so that Veleno isn't expected to immediately be our 2C. I do think he looked more than capable in his short stint though, and I do think he can potentially overtake that spot at some point next season. Unless of course, Yzerman significantly upgrades in that area, which I don't see happening...

I don't know about "lovely contract" or "capable center"... We would have to be heavily compensated (1st round pick, plus) to take on two more years at $5M per for Johnson. And make no mistake, Johnson isn't really a capable top six center anymore. He's playing on the 4th line on a stacked Lightning team. Ideally he would slot in on our 3rd line. I just put him on our 2nd line to appease the anti-Veleno crowd. If we were to acquire Johnson, Veleno would most definitely pass him on the depth chart before that contract ends.

I'd be all for Johnson being the bad contract / cap dump that Yzerman takes on... Vrana - Larkin - Zadina Bertuzzi - Johnson - Fabbri Rasmussen - Veleno - Gagner Erne - Glendening - Smith Panik / Svechnikov

This is the strategy I prefer, going into most drafts, because as I mentioned above, I just don't value elite goaltending as much as I value elite centers and defensemen. However, as I've also mentioned, with all of the uncertainty in this upcoming draft, I'd be completely fine if Yzerman doesn't see any elite talent outside of Wallstedt at 6th overall, and swings on the goaltender. I don't buy this being an extremely weak draft. It's just an extremely under-scouted draft, due to lack of playing time for a lot of the kids. My concern with taking Wallstedt as 6th overall isn't that he might not pan out. I think he will pan out. My concern is that he pans out to be an elite top 3 goalie in the league, and we have to pay him over $10M per long-term. I personally don't ever want to pay a goaltender that much money. Again, matter of building philosophy more than anything. In short, Wallstedt wouldn't be my first pick, but I wouldn't be as mad as some will (or I would in any other draft), if we take a goaltender that high...

C'mon man, you don't still think Rasmussen is / will be better than Veleno, do you?...

I think it's more so a matter of building philosophy rather than drafting philosophy for me. I will always prefer to build a team from the forwards in, rather than the net out. No doubt you need balance, but teams continue to prove that you can win with elite players and adequate goaltending. This is the first time I can remember the two best goalies in the game making it to the Stanley Cup Finals. There's usually at least one (sometimes both) mediocre goaltender(s) carried by an elite team of skaters. I've always been 100% against taking a goaltender high in the draft for the reason above. This is the first year I wouldn't hate it. Partly because I don't have a skater in mind that I really want, partly because of all of the uncertainty in this year's draft, and partly because we have another 1st round pick and three 2nd round picks. I don't think a single person is questioning whether or not Wallstedt can be a legit number one, potentially elite goaltender. I think what people are questioning, is how much of an impact do goaltenders really have on the game, and if it outweighs the impact of skaters. I personally don't think it does. So Wallstedt becomes an elite goalie. You then have to pay him $9M+ to play at most 75% (likely lower) of your games every season. I just think you can get a goaltender via trade or free agency any season, for significantly cheaper, without much of a drop off.

Protect Larkin, Vrana, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Rasmussen, Erne, Smith, Hronek, Stecher, Cholowski, Greiss in the Expansion Draft. Seattle Takes Namestnikov. Buyout Nielsen. Re-sign RFA's (Vrana, Bertuzzi, Rasmussen, Svechnikov, Erne, Smith, Pearson, Hronek, Cholowski, Lindstrom). Re-sign UFA's (Glendening, Gagner, Hirose, Turgeon, Criscuolo, Elson, Hicketts, McIlrath, Bernier, Pickard). Let everyone else walk. Sign a stop-gap top 4 left-handed defenseman (Alec Martinez / Jamie Oleksiak). Trade for a short-term bad contract / salary dump (James Neal / Loui Eriksson). Vrana - Larkin - Zadina Bertuzzi - Veleno - Fabbri Neal - Rasmussen - Gagner Erne - Glendening - Smith Panik / Svechnikov Martinez - Seider Cholowski - Hronek DeKeyser - Stecher Lindstrom Bernier Greiss This is still a really bad team, by design. Yzerman will likely be aiming for another bottom 5 finish in 2022, and start turning the corner the following season as we continue to get younger / more skilled. Veleno, Raymond, Berggren, McIsaac, Johansson, 2021 1st round pick, potentially 2022 1st round pick will be taking the spots of Filppula, Helm, Ryan, Gagner, Panik, Staal, DeKeyser over the next couple seasons. We could also potentially see another big trade involving one or two of Vrana, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Hronek. Either way, it should be fun to see how Yzerman utilizes the mass amount of cap space and draft capital over the next couple seasons...