krsmith17

Nope. He was playing third line center, and got promoted to second line wing.

Maybe he was taking time to transition to his third league, third country in three years... Maybe he would have been scoring as a center at this point, had he been left there. Like I said, he was starting to play better prior to the switch, which was the reason for the promotion in the first place. There's no doubt Larkin was a better prospect, further along in his development. That doesn't mean Veleno won't figure it out, and won't become a solid NHL center.

What's your point? Larkin was able to put up strong offensive numbers as a 19 year old rookie because he was playing on Zetterberg's wing. If he were the 2C behind Z, he most definitely wouldn't have put up close to those numbers. Why did Larkin, a player that played his entire career at center, play on the wing his first couple seasons transitioning to the NHL? And why did he move back to center? Veleno has played his entire career up until this point at center. His style of play is very much suited to play center. The Red Wings will most definitely want him to play center. He will most likely be an NHL center.

Because he's still young and developing... He was starting to take off before being moved to wing, but playing a position with less defensive responsibility has allowed him to play more of an offensive role. That doesn't mean he's better suited in that role long term though. Did you also think Larkin was better suited on the wing after a very strong rookie season on Zetterberg's wing? Do you think Larkin would have put up 45 points in his rookie season, if he were playing center? Why do you suppose his offense has "exploded" at all, with his "limited offensive ability"?

I still think long term Veleno is better suited and will be a center for the Red Wings.

"We have an algorithm that predicts fantasy output based on fantasy scoring rules, which can be set in our portal tool. Thats the 'top'."...

I'm not sure how I'm proving your point, I'm not even really sure what your point is. My point is that Cholowski should get a good long look this season, whether that's out of the gate, or after 10 games. I think Yzerman / Blashill will prove my point, when he inevitably gets into games, and gets power-play time. What he does in those games is yet to be seen. I think he can be a positive impact. If he doesn't show some major progression, I think it may soon be time to move on. Sure you could argue that. You could also argue that he'd be better off in Detroit as the #6 defenseman, playing, practicing and training with NHL players, rather than in Grand Rapids on what will likely be a very bad Griffins team... Your "Staal scored just as well as Cholowski" argument is extremely flawed. First of all, the Wings were far and away the worst offensive team in the league last season. They scored 35 less goals than the next worst team. The Rangers scored 91 more goals than the Red Wings, and Cholowski STILL scored at a slightly better points per game pace, 0.222 PTS/G vs Staal's 0.212 PTS/G. Also take into account that Cholowski is 22, probably going to improve, and Staal is 33, likely going to continue to decline, and Cholowski is a MUCH better option. He's also a much better option than Biega and Lindstrom, again in my opinion...

I think Cholowski is a better option over Staal and Biega (and Lindstrom) for this season and the future. I think most Red Wings fans would agree. A few here seem to disagree, which is fine.

We'll see.

Yeah, clearly a typo... I meant to say... I don't think it's too unrealistic to think he could become close to a HALF point per game defensemen through his prime years, once this team gets better over the next few seasons. I don't think 35-40 points in his prime is that crazy... He may never get there, but maybe...

I think this year's lineup decisions does affect the future of this team in a big way. It depends on where you think would be more beneficial for Cholowski to develop, the AHL or NHL. Like mentioned, I don't think you should go into the expansion draft this summer without a real look at Cholowski this season. Fortunately, I think Cholowski will get plenty of looks throughout the season. I just hope he's not being yo-yoed between leagues. There's something to be said about how that affects a players confidence, and thus development as well. Again, Cholowski demonstrated that he deserved a spot in each of the past two training camps. I don't think there's any reason to doubt he can do so again this time around. He just needs to hold onto it this time. And yes, that will mean generating offense, producing on the power-play, and playing better defensively. I agree with the bold (for the most part), but I think things are different with the expansion draft looming. I think all of the players eligible to be drafted by Seattle should / will get a good long look this season. I think Rasmussen needs to play a lot this season as well. I'd personally play Cholowski (and Lindstrom) over Staal and Biega, and Rasmussen (and Svechnikov (if healthy) and Smith) over Nielsen, Filppula, Helm and Erne most nights. Sure, I guess, but the Lindstrom's of the world can be found in free agency for dirt cheap, every single offseason. I think all players should be able to defend to some degree, as well as generate offense to some degree. I think Cholowski is better offensively than Lindstrom is defensively. 24 points in 88 games as a 20/21 year old defenseman on a team that struggles to generate offense / score goals, has one of the worst power-plays in the league (that's not on Cholowski), is pretty solid in my opinion. Based on that, I don't think it's too unrealistic to think he could become close to a point per game defensemen through his prime years, once this team gets better over the next few seasons. The question still remains whether or not he can improve on his defensive game. I think he can, but we should soon find out...

Forwards - Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Rasmussen, Namestnikov, Svechnikov Defensemen - Hronek, Stecher, Cholowski Goalie - Greiss

1. Mantha plays all 56 games, leading the team in goals (25+) and points (60+). 2. Zadina scores 20+ goals, 40+ points. 3. Red Wings win 22 games.

So would you play Staal and / or Biega over both as well? Hronek, Nemeth, DeKeyser, Stecher, Merrill and who? But wouldn't you say that is more of a defensive thing again? The team isn't generating offense when he's on the ice, because he and the other four on the ice spend more time chasing... Agreed. The tools are there, he just needs to put it all together. He's running out of time and chances. I hope he can put it together this season. I think he can be a 4/5 defenseman and PP QB if everything goes right for him.

I get the whole differential part of it, but I think it's easier for an offensive minded defenseman to iron out the defensive deficiencies, than it is for a defensive defenseman to gain offensive ability. I just think Cholowski's ceiling is higher than Lindstrom's, and as a rebuilding team starved for offense, I'd be playing Cholowski. If he doesn't pan out, oh well, we can always trade him to the Rangers for a 2nd and 3rd round pick...

I don't really disagree with any of this. And like I said, if Cholowski doesn't improve his defensive game, and is a liability defensively more than he is a weapon offensively, move on, the same way we did with Athanasiou. On the other side of it though, didn't Ehn teach us that irrespective of how good you are defensively, if you can't generate some offense, then you bring nothing to the team? To the extent that Lindstrom has defensive ability, it is overshadowed by how little offensive ability he has. No team should throw an offensive blackhole out on the ice game after game, just because he's decent defensively. When Lindstrom learns how to generate chances offensively, that's when he should earn a spot. Otherwise, he's just a defensive version of Ehn, and those guys suck... Cholowski > Lindstrom

Upside isn't relevant? Cholowski has more upside than any other option in my opinion. THAT'S why I think he should be in the lineup over Staal, Biega, Staal, etc. Why do you think Cholowski has been given PP opportunities? He's shown flashes of high end ability on the power-play. Sure. Let him sit on the taxi squad all season. That should be great for his development... So I guess you agree with the upside. So if you would protect Cholowski over Lindstrom or Stecher, why would you not play him over them? I'm not following the logic...

This. We need more offense from the back end. Cholowski can provide that. Also, this. The expansion draft should be a major factor. We need to get a good look at what we have in Cholowski this season. I don't care if he's in the lineup for game one, but ideally he plays 40+ games this season. Lindstrom sucks. As of today, I'd protects Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Namestnikov, Svechnikov, Rasmussen, Hronek, Stecher, Cholowski, Greiss

So when discussing forwards, you consider offense a more valuable attribute? That's not the case and we know that. I'd prefer to give an offensive players an opportunity, let him make mistakes, as long as he's learning from them. If he doesn't, oh well. Move on. We did just that with Athanasiou. Maybe we do the same with Cholowski after this season. But if we are going to do that, I'd give him a long hard look this season before doing so. The offense translating to the NHL is irrelevant, because I'm not arguing that Cholowski will be a great offensive player in the NHL. I can definitely see a reality where he completely flops. I'm arguing that Cholowski has been an offensive player his whole career prior to turning pro, and I think he needs to be given an(other) opportunity. I get it, some people prefer the more defensive minded, safe option in Lindstrom. With that, you also get a lower ceiling. I don't see Lindstrom ever being a difference maker at the NHL level. Sure, he may be able to defend, but I don't think he'll ever produce much offense. It's much easier to teach an offensive minded player to defend, than it is to teach a defensive minded player to produce offense. I'm not against adding anyone better than Cholowski. I'm against adding anyone that isn't a significant upgrade over Cholowski now AND in the future, aka age 26+. Something we agree on... I'd much rather sign Bowey to another short term contract, than Vatanen. I liked Bowey, because he could actually produce offense, and despite what people say, I don't think he was that bad defensively...

I said IF it was the reason he was drafted. I remember Tyler Wright going on and on about his size and ability to play net front on the power-play. I thought there were better options at the time. I was big on Vilardi, but I've come around on Rasmussen. I think he could still be a very good role player for this team.

Nobody on the Red Wings have played in 10 months. Cholowski isn't at a disadvantage there. He was a "surprise" out of camp in each of the past two seasons, so why not again this season? His problem hasn't been getting a spot, it's been holding down that spot... Last season Hronek, Bowey and Green (barely) produced at a higher clip than Cholowski. Daley, Nemeth, Ericsson, Lindstrom, and Biega all produced at a significantly lower clip. And I'd make the same argument again. These players were / are offensive defensemen. That's why they were drafted, and that's why they've had success up to that / this point. Whether or not that offense translates to the NHL is irrelevant in this argument. I'm not saying Cholowski will be a dynamic offensive defenseman. I'm saying he's shown flashes, and we need to find out what we have in him. If Cholowski is given another opportunity early on and then traded next month, it wouldn't bother me a bit. Not at all. I've said he still needs to earn it. He's earned it at the beginning of the past two seasons, and there's no reason to think he can't again this season. Hopefully he can hold onto it this time though. Hronek, DeKeyser, Nemeth, Stecher, and maybe even Merrill should be ahead of Cholowski. Staal, Biega and Lindstrom should not be in my opinion. I think Cholowski should be able to beat all of the latter group, whether that's game one or not, we'll see. I don't think a team should ever wait until a player is waiver eligible to figure out whether or not he's a part of the future. That should be done this season in my opinion.

So why is it time for them, but not time for Cholowski? Svechnikov wasn't any better than Cholowski last season... Sure, but he would be playing power-play, which he's already proven to be good at, and 5-on-5 (sheltered minutes). That's not the worst situation to put a young developing defenseman in. You're acting as if Cholowski was the only defensive liability on the team last season. He wasn't. Daley and Ericsson were both worse, without providing the offense. This simply isn't true. Daley, along with Ericsson were two of the 5 worst defensemen in the entire league last season based on just about every metric. Cholowski was much better offensively and also as good or better defensively than both. Stop assuming that every move the general manager or coach makes, is the right decision. They make bad decisions just like everyone else. Lashoff is a very good AHL defenseman. If he's on your NHL roster in favor of anyone though, it's scary. Last year's Red Wings were scary... a lot of coaching decisions were scary... Seider is definitely better than Cholowski. Lindstrom is not. Why is it that you think a player that is good defensively, but awful offensively is better than a player that is not so good defensively, but good offensively? I just don't get that mindset. It was the same argument with Ehn, and look where he ended up... Exactly where I said he would end up... No one is saying to give him the spot "just because he's young". But he should be given every opportunity to earn that spot over players with no future here, because he is young.

Pietrangelo is getting up there now, but he absolutely was an elite (top 5) defensemen through his prime years, as was he on that playoff run. You talk about defensemen that are good offensively and defensively, Pietro was elite, and still is close to elite in all areas of the game in my opinion. When I said O'Reilly and Tarasenko are right there, I mean they're on the cusp. They're very close in my opinion. O'Reilly was near a point per game that season, and through the playoffs, while being an elite shutdown center. I'd say he was an elite center that season for sure. Tarasenko isn't on that same level offensively, and certainly not defensively, but a high, high end winger nonetheless.

Crosby and McDavid are generational. Pietroangelo is definitely elite, and I'd consider O'Reilly and Tarasenko right there as well.