krsmith17

Speaking of suck, Veleno with an assist showing off his wheels and hockey IQ...

LOL you don't "like" athletes, you like the game they play, and you don't "like" musicians, you like the music they play... Makes sense... LOL

LOL this may be the dumbest thing I've ever read on here... and that's impressive... Do you like the Red Wings?

I already backed off on the word elite. Get over it. I do like Veleno. Do you not like Veleno? I like Seider too. Do you like Seider? I'm not sure what this has to do with anything...

No policing. Just making a point. I value the opinion of people that actually watch the games over people that just check the stat sheet. LOL coming from the guy that claimed Athanasiou was better than Larkin. Let's go back and rehash all the dumb things you've said over the years. But hey, props for not mentioning Jurco... Also, if I recall, I was one of the first on the Hronek bandwagon. I remember saying that about Saarijarvi when everyone jumped on his bandwagon, but not Hronek...

I've watched quite a few SHL games, watching the Rogle vs Malmo game now. Veleno has looked good from what I've seen. Euro posters that have also watched him play, echo the same sentiment. He's looked good on a bad team. Then there are posters that haven't watched him, and only look at stats, citing his poor +/- as evidence that he's not good...

There is no out clause in an SHL contract. All of Seider, Raymond, Berggren, Veleno, Brome, etc. have to stay in Sweden until their respective teams are finished.

Fair enough. I admitted that "elite" may have been a poor word choice, and explained what I meant (should have been clear without explanation), but kip and co. will go on and on about how Veleno isn't elite because of x, y, and z. Well, no s***... To be fair, if you were in Peewee, and you were among the best players in the league, an elite Peewee player would be perfectly acceptable in my opinion...

Dude, maybe you should read what you said again. "If *player* had elite upside, he never would have fallen to *30th overall*", implies that players with elite upside never fall to 30th overall... I'm not saying GM's or scouts were wrong about the elite aspect. AGAIN, I don't think Veleno will be an elite NHL player relative to the entire league. That was very clear in everything I said. I do however, think if everything goes right, he could be one of the better 2nd line centers in the league. We can use elite relative to league, but not position. Got it. Can we still use it relative to a specific attribute? Yes, I am obviously saying that figure skaters would be elite NHL players... You must have gotten that from when I said I don't think Veleno will be elite, despite his elite skating...

If this were true, teams would never find "elite" players outside of the 1st round. Is Kucherov not elite? I don't think the word gets thrown around too casually. I think words get scrutinized and put under the microscope far too often. By definition almost every NHL player can be labeled as elite, as they are the best in the world at what they do. In saying that, it was quite clear by everything else I was saying that I don't think Veleno will ever be elite, in terms of an NHL player. Veleno, like most NHL quality players though, does have elite attributes. He is an elite skater. There is no question about that. His acceleration, top end speed, edge work is elite. I would also say his hands and vision are borderline elite. We need elite players, regardless of position. Ideally we'll be able to add a center, but if the best player available is a defenseman (Owen Power), so be it.

Fate sealed.

Maybe even top 5, but he's also three years younger. Veleno should be scoring more (and he has the past few games), but I don't think his production (or lack there of) in the SHL as a 20 year old is sealing his fait one way or another in regards to the player he'll be in the NHL.

Forget everything I've said. This automatically means he's not going to be an NHL caliber 2C.

LOL okay so now bad contracts can be an advantage. Got it. I'm learning so much... Of course no free agents will net a return in the acquisition, but there are some that would net a much bigger return in the eventual trade deadline trade.

You can use stats, but maybe watch a game or two to go along with your stats. You'd be taken a lot more seriously if you weren't basing your entire argument off of stats. Veleno has looked very good in the SHL. The tools are there. Let's wait and see if he can put it all together, rather than writing him off at the age of 20. Again, comparing Veleno's situation to Johnson and Killorn? The former is a prospect that will continue to develop. The latter are aging veterans that will eventual decline... I never said players don't do it. But it is rare. Once again you're comparing Veleno to much better players, drafted much earlier than him. Noted. You have to be a top player on your team (nevermind league) to be a top six player in the NHL...

There is risk involved in any trade or signing. To say otherwise is foolish. The risk goes up significantly the older the player, the higher the cap hit, and the longer the term. I don't see much risk in Killorn, but there is definitely risk in Johnson. Not in the sense that we won't be able to sign free agents or make any other trades, but a good GM and owner will never want bad contracts on the books. If Yzerman is taking on that risk, I'm sure he will want to be properly compensated. There are free, better players available in free agency. There are also better assets than a late 1st or 2nd round pick available for taking on worse players on shorter term contracts (less risk). I keep comparing them to Nielsen? No I don't. number9 was the first to bring him up, and I agreed that Johnson could be viewed as a similarly bad contract in a few years. If Yzerman wants a 2nd round pick for taking on two huge contracts, he'd do it. Let's wait and see. My bet is, either a deal involving both doesn't get done or if it does get done, it's for significantly more than a 1st round pick.

Why do teams even scout players? Why is that even a job title? Why not just do what kipwinger does and look at stats to determine which players will be good / not good... Berggren good. Veleno not good. Got it. Thanks! Veleno was never an "overager" in the CHL. He was playing in the AHL in what would have been his "overage" season. Like I keep telling you, but you refuse to listen, Veleno has been ahead of his peers at every level. He entered the CHL as an "underager", and did the same in the AHL. Yes, Europeans can and sometimes do the same, but they're still "underage" comparative to when players typically make the jump to pro.

I wouldn't like it. And neither would Yzerman or the deal would have been done by now. You're actually trying to compare being optimistic about an upcoming prospect and pessimistic about an aging veteran? Okay... Tampa aren't going anywhere. They will be a top 4 team again next season, unless they have some major injuries. Would it make you feel better if I said 59th-62nd overall? Myself and @nyqvististhefuture have debated the value of 2nd round picks several times. I've always been of the opinion that they're not as valuable as people make them out to be, especially beyond 50.

It makes perfect sense why you responded to that post explaining my rationale, with just "So you think Danault is "one of the best 2C in the league"?"... You're completely misrepresenting what I said, like you always do, and you know it. You know damn well I wasn't saying that Veleno is or will be an "elite" NHLer, but he could be an "elite" 2C, by my definition, 32-35 ranked center in the league. But yeah, this guy... ... has no shot at becoming a legitimate 2nd line NHL center. We know that because other guys are outproducing him in the SHL. All players develop at the same rate, and at the age of 20 we know what players are at that point in their career...

Take it for what it's worth, but according to Sean Tierney, there are going to be 10 teams worse than the Red Wings this season... That's quite the improvement on last season. I don't necessarily think we'll improve that much, but I do think we'll climb the standings at least a few spots. And that's without anymore moves, which I think there will be...

Who says they're still going to be good in 2-3 years? That's no guarantee. I'd bet against it. How is Nielsen hurting the team? He's not really, when looking at the big picture, but it still sucks having him on the roster. You think the 62nd overall pick is a "very valuable" asset? It has value, sure, but it's far from "very valuable"...

To be fair, a late 2nd round pick, for that much cap space, is basically nothing, and someone has suggested that...

Are current Nielsen and Helm awful compared to future (2-3 years) Killorn and Johnson though? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't see Johnson or that contract aging well at all, and I have no interest in trading for him, unless he comes with significant pieces to help the rebuild. OR we could better utilize the cap space, and make smarter moves... We could do like @nyqvististhefuture said and sign Hoffman (or other UFA), who is much better, and would garner a much better return at the trade deadline. We could also trade for another bad contract and get a much better return now. It's not Johnson and Killorn or bust. There are many other ways to use the cap space, and take full advantage of the current situation. We are improving, but no need to make rash decisions that could negatively impact the future. You build a team through the draft. You build around a team through trade and free agency. We've added some low key good players. We've also gotten rid of some very bad players (addition by subtraction). We've upgraded every single position. Greiss over Howard alone should give the team an extra 5+ wins on the season. We should also see growth from some of the young players. You can never count on health, but I'll assume we see more of DeKeyser and Mantha this season. All of this combined, in my opinion, should translate to a MUCH improved team. I'm not saying we'll be a playoff team by any stretch, but we won't see as many blowouts, a lot less losing, and a little more winning.

I think we're a MUCH improved team as is. I don't see us getting blown out, and losing games in the fashion we did last season. You mentioned Namestnikov as one of the positive replacements. I agree. Those are the types of low risk, high reward moves Yzerman is making. This particular trade, is high risk, low reward. It's not going to happen, so we're wasting a whole lot of time discussing it...

Fair. So maybe we aren't a Stanley Cup winning caliber team if Veleno doesn't hit his ceiling, and / or we don't draft / sign a better 2nd line center. That doesn't change the fact that he would be considered a solid 2C on an average NHL team, if he's a Danault caliber center. Bad contracts matter. Johnson's contract is bad now. It could be Ann albatross in a few years. Why risk that, when you can get the same (or better) return from a different team, without the risk?