krsmith17

You're assuming these players are still going to be good in a few years. They will regress, it's just a matter of how much. It's very unlikely that they're both 40-50 point players on a much worse team in 3-4 years time. Why does it matter when their contracts were signed? They were both decent to good contracts at the time they were signed. Bad to decent now, and likely really bad to bad in a few years. I don't think it's fair to assume an extra 15-20 points going from one of the best teams in the league to the worst. Sure they're going to get more ice time, but they're also going to have less support around them. That's the difference I guess. I don't necessarily want useful players for this season. I want useful players 2-3 years from now. I'd rather take on 1-2 years of a bad player, getting better assets in return, than take on 3-4 years of a good player, that will likely be bad (or at least worse) in 2-3 years, and get lesser assets. I've never brought up Nielsen or Helm, but now that you have, they could be that bad in 2-3 years from now. Nielsen was a very solid 2C for many years, until all of a sudden he wasn't. It happens. Age catches up to every player, and it's going to eventually hit Johnson and Killorn. The future assets have to be worth the gamble, as well as the favor we're granting Tampa. Their are higher 1st and 2nd round picks to be had, without taking on $9.5M in cap space over the next 3-4 years. Bad deal.

Bad contract does not equal bad player. Nice try though... Also, Danault is 3 years younger, $2M cheaper, and a pending UFA. I wouldn't want to take on Danault either if the situation were at all the same. Hint, it's not... Johnson was a very good 2C. That doesn't mean he will continue to be a very good 2C for the next 4 years, after already showing signs of decline (or maybe it was just a down season).

No, I think Danault is a very strong 2C. I'll say this one last time... I think Joe Veleno will be a player in the mold of a Phillip Danault. In my opinion, that's his likely outcome, in terms of style and production. HOWEVER, I do think it's possible he exceeds that, making him one of the better 2nd line centers in the league. Floor if he falls flat - reliable 3C Ceiling if everything goes right - high end 2C Likely falls somewhere in between - 2C

I never said they would be untradeable in a few years. I question their value at that time. If it's low now, what makes you think it will be any better in a few years, going from the best team in the league to the worst team in the league? I think everyone would agree that if we signed Johnson and Killorn to their current contracts today, they would be overpaid, and pretty bad signings. No, they're not huge compared to other contracts around the league, but they are huge compared to the contracts that Yzerman has been willing to sign so far in the rebuild. I'm aware we have some bad contracts falling off. That doesn't mean we should sign more bad contracts (unless we're being heavily compensated). OR don't take the deal from Tampa, let the Stanley Cup champs, divisional rivals remain in cap hell, and call up another GM, and take on an actual cap dump. We still get the future assets (maybe even more), we don't improve our team (aside from how much it has already improved this offseason), hurting our draft odds, and we don't have to worry about whether or not Johnson and Killorn will transition / age well... Let's swap out our old bad contracts with new bad contracts. Smart.

If we're being real, every single player in the NHL is "elite". They're in the top 0.0001% of hockey players in the world. Of course we're not going to call 4th line players elite though. We need to differentiate between players in the league. So if we can do that, why can't we do the same with lines? Babcock once labeled Helm as the best 3rd line center in the league. Was he an "elite" hockey player? Absolutely. Was he an "elite" NHL player? No. Was he an "elite" 3rd line NHL center? I would say so. Typical kip though, latch onto one word or phrase and debate that instead of the actually topic. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "elite" to describe Veleno as a 2C. But all I meant was that I think he could be one of the better 2C's in the NHL, if everything goes right. That's what I think Veleno's ultimate ceiling is. You disagree? Cool. We'll see. And no, as much as you want to label Malkin, Draisaitl and Tavares as 2C's, they're not. They're 1C's playing 2nd line center on a stacked team (in terms of position). Regarding the bold... Exactly. If Veleno were playing 4th line center in a few years because we had insane center depth, he wouldn't be a 4C. He would be a 2C forced down the depth chart. "This isn't some big riddle to solve". It's common sense.

Comparing this situation to what we received for Staal is fair, because that's exactly the type of trade Yzerman should be pursuing. We don't need the team to improve in the short term with Johnson and Killorn. We need the team to improve in the long term with future assets. BriseBois isn't willing to pay up a 1st, plus, plus, to get out of cap hell? Fine, move onto the next team that needs to shed cap space. There are many other options out there. Again, we don't have to make a move. Tampa does. As much as you like to mock, Yzerman does have full control.

That's assuming they still have value in a few years. A lot of players tend to fall off quite a bit into their 30's. Johnson passed through waivers a couple months ago. Tampa are trying to dump him now and no team wants him. He's not going to gain value. He would probably end up being a buyout candidate before the contract is up, assuming Seattle doesn't take him in the expansion draft. Killorn may have value at the trade deadline in a few years, but I doubt it would be for anything more than a 2nd round pick. I have no interest in taking on two huge contracts, to improve the team in the short term, but likely hurt the team in the long term. This team is not in a position to be adding Johnson and Killorn, unless we're being heavily compensated. I don't think a single person is opposed to taking on one or both of Johnson / Killorn. The debate isn't whether or not we should take them, but rather, what is a fair return. Would you take a late 2nd round pick? A late 1st? Or are you in agreement with pretty much everyone else and think it would cost (a lot) more?

Exactly. And yes, it makes perfect sense. This. I still think Veleno could be a legitimate 2C, but yeah, ideally he will be our 3rd line center, because that will mean we have another 1C calibre player, along with Larkin, playing on our 2nd line.

No, an elite 2C to me would be a 32-35ish ranked center in the league. Danault is a player comp and a very fair one, stylistically. He's also been, or on pace to be a 50ish point, high end 2C the past three seasons.

Not a single one of those three players is a "2C". They're playing 2nd line center because they have an elite 1C ahead of them. I've compared him countless times to Danault, but yeah, I definitely think he's in the Malkin / Draisaitl / Tavares teir... It's funny that some of you think it's more ridiculous to think a prospect like Veleno could be a legitimate 2C, rather than to think there's absolutely no way he could ever be a 2C...

What's your point? I already responded to that in the other thread... I think Veleno's absolute floor is 3C, ultimate ceiling is elite 2C, but likely ends up somewhere in between. Reliable two-way 2C. Maybe he'll never carry a line, but put two high end / elite wingers on his line, like Zadina and Raymond, and he won't look at all out of place. He's an elite skater, with high end vision and good puck skills. If he can figure out the defensive side of the game (I think he will), he'll be a legit threat all over the ice.

I don't doubt that for a second...

This may be a little rich, but yeah, imagine thinking a 1st round pick would suffice taking those two contracts...

No argument? You're the only one saying that a late 1st round pick would be enough compensation to take on both Johnson and Killorn. I've laid out a very valid argument as to why that's not enough. If it were enough, and this rumor were actually legit (it's not), then the trade would have already happened. It hasn't...

You're dumb as s***, and not worth the time, but here I go once again. Never did I say Yzerman had BriseBois by the balls. I said Yzerman is in the driver's seat. Which he is, and yes, there is a difference. Yzerman doesn't have to make a trade. BriseBois does. Yzerman shouldn't take anything less than what he thinks is fair value. A late 1st round pick isn't close for taking on those two contracts. BriseBois can make a trade with one or two other teams. Yzerman can take on a salary dump from a different team. It's really not that difficult to understand...

Tampa need to move players. Detroit doesn't need to add any players. Yes, Yzerman is in the driver's seat... BriseBois doesn't have to make a trade with Yzerman, but if he wants to sign his RFA's, he does have to make some trades. Detroit are one of the few trade partners these teams trying to shed cap space have. If BriseBois doesn't like Yzerman's ask, cool. Move on to the next team.

I'd rather not, because of cap constraints, but of course I would. There is no player I wouldn't trade or trade for, if the price is right. The price would have to be significantly higher than the rumor that started this whole debate though. What that would be, again, no idea. I'd target their 2022 1st round pick, rather than their 2021 1st round pick. And I'd also want a couple other high end assets (picks / prospects). Like I mentioned in the other thread, I'd like to see some sort of three way trade involving both Johnson, Killorn, and another team. We eat salary on one, take the other one, and get assets from both teams. I don't know, just spit balling...

Sure, but it depends on how you read it. You could take it as that's what I'd want for each of them in one big trade, or (how I meant it), that's what I would want for each of them in two different trade scenarios. I've said countless times leading up to that post, I'd rather not take on both. I also doubt Yzerman takes on both. I think if there is a trade between Detroit and Tampa, it will be for one of Johnson or Killorn. Both should come with assets, but Johnson obviously a lot more.

Not everyone... The person I was responding to, thinks a 1st round pick would be enough. I honestly don't know exactly what it would take. A hell of a lot more than a 1st though. I'd aim for their 2022 1st, rather than their 2021 1st. I'd also want a high end prospect, and / or another high pick. I'd like to see some sort of three way trade involving Johnson, Killorn and another team. What that would look like, I have no idea...

In the above quote, I was basically saying that I'd rather just one of Johnson OR Killorn, not both. As mentioned prior to that quote, adding both would add a lot of cap for the next 3-4 years. Something I don't want, and Yzerman has said specifically he doesn't want. The 1st, 2nd/prospect (again depending on the year of the picks and caliber of prospect) is around what I would accept as a reasonable return for Johnson. Anything short of that, Tampa can keep him.

Would you do it?

What are you talking about? The only deal I said I definitely would not do, is the dumb rumor from nhltraderumors that started this whole debate. I'd want at least 2-3 high end assets in a trade taking both Johnson and Killorn. A 1st alone doesn't come close. What's so hard to understand about that?

And what you said on the exact topic, in another thread was also relevant...

What you're failing to grasp is that a rebuilding team should not be trading for any 30+ year old players, on high cap hit, long term contracts, unless they're getting well compensated. AGAIN, a 1st round pick isn't remotely close to what Yzerman would / should accept in a trade for Johnson and Killorn. If Killorn has as much value on that contract, as you seem to think, BriseBois shouldn't have any trouble moving him. Yzerman should be out.

It depends on the year of the pick(s) / caliber of the prospect(s) coming back. The original "rumor" was Johnson, Killorn and the Lightning 2021 1st round pick. That would be a terrible trade for Yzerman in my opinion. Change that pick to 2022 and it's a bit better. Add a 2nd round pick and / or prospect (again depending on the prospect), and it starts the conversation. I'm not sure exactly what it would take for me to pull the trigger, but the 2021 1st alone, doesn't come close.