krsmith17

No, you definitely didn't derail this thread by bringing up "Tyler Johnson or Alex Killorn"...

Again, just because Yzerman has cap space, doesn't mean he should use it. It's amazing that anyone would advocate taking on two huge, long term contracts for two 30+ year old average forwards, in the middle of a rebuild, without proper compensation. Johnson alone should garner a 1st round pick, plus another asset or two. Johnson AND Killorn, even more. Yzerman isn't going to settle for a subpar return to help out a divisional rival. It's not going to happen.

It's a good thing what you say in *other* threads can't be brought up in this one... Otherwise, you'd look really dumb... I don't blame you for bailing in the other thread, and continuing the conversation here, where we can't discuss the dumb things you said over there...

What does this have to do with anything? Try making some valid points and I might take you seriously... Besides, like @ely s already mentioned, there are still 57 roster spots open.

And there it is... Ya know, you could just say you're a complete moron, and have absolutely nothing better to say than "durrr, remember when you thought Jurco and Smith were going to be good"...

You said we would have to give up assets to get Killorn, not the other way around... I then said, Yzerman would be dumb to give up assets (aka futures) to acquire a past his prime winger. Try to keep up...

What team has $100M+ in free cap space? I've already explained why Yzerman is in the driver's seat. If your simple brain can't understand that, there's nothing I can do for you. It's almost like you get dumber with each dumb username you come back with...

You're the only person dumb enough to think that 2C is "unrealistic" expectations for Joe Veleno. I'm sure you said the same thing about Mantha becoming an elite 1W a few years ago...

I've said from day one that I'd take Johnson as a cap dump. What I wouldn't do, hasn't changed. I would not take Johnson AND Killorn for just a 1st round pick. I'd want a 1st, plus another pick and / or prospect for Johnson, and at least a 2nd for Killorn. We're not at the point in our rebuild where we can afford to be giving up futures for past their prime players. I can't believe this s*** has to be explained here...

What does me wearing a face mask, or your dumb ass not wearing a face mask have to do with anything? What you or I do doesn't change the fact that there IS a global pandemic, and more importantly to this discussion, there IS a flat cap for the next few seasons.

Sergachev is already signed. He'd be the only one I'd be willing to overpay for. I'd have mild interest in one of the other two, depending on the cost. I'm completely okay with taking on a bad contract for assets, but it has to be worth it. Johnson for four years at $5M, for a late 1st round pick isn't close to worth it in my opinion... Carolina got a mid 1st round pick last year for taking on Marleau for one year at $6M, and that was before Covid times... The price should be MUCH higher than that for a similar cap hit, over 4x the term, in this current climate...

Nope, and I'd take Johnson and a 1st round pick, plus another asset, over Timashov (waiver claim). Just get the deal done already...

I still believe that Veleno will be a 2nd line NHL center. However, more often than not, you're not getting that sort of player at 30th overall.

Damn. Yeah, I forgot when Chicago kept having cap crunches there was a global pandemic and an unexpected flat cap. Oh wait, never mind, that didn't happen... I'm not saying what other teams will do. I'm saying what Yzerman should do. The Red Wings are not in position to be giving up assets for average, past their prime players. I'd take Killorn if there's an asset attached. If we have to send an asset to Tampa, no thanks! We don't need him.

You really need to stop looking at these players in a vacuum and start looking at the situation these teams are in. Tampa Bay HAVE to move two big contracts to sign their two RFA's (Cirelli and Cernak). Every GM in the league knows this. No team should be doing the Stanley Cup champions any favors. Killorn is a decent player, but likely not as good as he performed on an elite team, and will likely be overpaid for the remaining years of his contract. If I'm Yzerman (or any GM), I want an asset back for helping them out of cap hell. If BriseBois doesn't want to give up said asset, f*** 'em. We don't need Killorn. Johnson will most definitely garner a 1st round pick in return, at the very least. Both combined, I want a 1st, plus one premium asset, or two good assets.

Again, Timashov was not under contract, so he did not need to be moved to make room for anyone, regardless what trade may be in the works.

Absolutely no. Like I've been saying all along, that is an AWFUL trade.

Timashov wasn't under contract anyway, so likely not the reason for the move, but I do expect Yzerman to make another trade or two in the coming days / week...

LOL pretty convenient that I'm reading this just after responding in the other thread... So this is the kind of odds you want for taking on a cap dump...

Sure, "1/3 of the league" have the cap space to take on those contracts, but OVER 1/3 of the league are looking to shed bad contracts... Taking both of those contracts for a late 1st round pick would be bad cap management in my opinion. There are / will be other, better ways to utilize the cap space. Don't blow it all in one deal. Also, I'd say your numbers are a little off. Three other teams, besides the Red Wings have the cap space, AND an owner willing to spend to the salary cap. And that's assuming two things, none of Nashville, Los Angeles, or New Jersey are working under an internal cap (doubtful), and all three teams would want to take on two big contracts, long term (again, doubtful). I'd say worst case scenario, Yzerman is up against one other team, willing to take on both Johnson and Killorn. Johnson is an average player propped up by an elite team. Watch him go to a bad team and fall off a cliff. We can "afford" a lot of bad contracts. That doesn't mean we should offer to take them for subpar returns. A late 1st round pick is far from a "great asset". Veleno was a late 1st round pick, and by most accounts, an absolute steal at that position, but yet most think he maxes out as a 3rd line center. So we're taking on TWO huge contracts, for one swing, and just going by the odds, likely a miss. Bad deal. Again, add in another high pick and / or high end prospect, and I'd listen. For a late 1st, keep the cap space, and call any number of the other teams, also under a cap crunch, take on only one contract, get a higher 1st round pick, or a 2nd round pick and a prospect, and probably even take on less term. This is assuming there are other teams that even want to take on two huge contracts, in a flat cap, where most owners are likely pinching every penny... Maybe there's a reason we've only heard Detroit linked to this particular trade. Maybe he's the only GM (with an owner) willing to take on both players / contracts.

To be clear, the initial trade rumor in discussion was Johnson, Killorn and their 2021 1st round pick, which will likely be 28-31st overall. No mention of any other picks or prospects. If Tampa weren't in cap hell, desperate to free up cap space, to re-sign Cirelli and Cernak, that might be close to a decent trade. That's not the case though. Yzerman is one of only a couple GM's that actually has the cap space, AND an owner (presumably) willing to spend to the cap, to take on BOTH Johnson and Killorn. He holds all the power. BriseBois is at his mercy. That's why, in my opinion, a late 1st round pick, that may or may not pan out, is not close to enough to help out a divisional rival. Also, saying that Johnson is a "good" player at this point in his career is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. He's 30 years old and will most definitely see a decline in production over the next few years. He was just under half a point per game last season, playing mostly on Cirelli's wing, along with one of Stamkos or Palat. He also played a fair bit on the top line wing, with Point and Kucherov. And he's going to somehow go from the top team in the league to the wrost team in the league, playing with weaker players, and outpace what he did last season? I doubt it. Johnson is on a very bad contract, which is why he passed through waivers a couple months ago. Killorn is a better player, on a better contract, but it still doesn't make up for the lack of value coming back in my opinion. Include another high pick and / or high end prospect, and I'd at least listen... Otherwise, no thanks!

It was fun in the beginning. Getting kind of monotonous now though... Yes please. I would think training camp will start in a few weeks, if their target date of Jan 13th to start the season sticks.

What are you talking about? I never said you said you agree with the trade. I said you were trying to justify the trade. Which you were. I also never said you said Yzerman "SHOULD" make the trade. I said you said Yzerman "might" make the trade. Which you did. Again, assuming everyone that doesn't agree, are closed minded. How very closed minded of you... The thing is, the "proposal" never had any validity. It was a bad rumor, written by a nobody writer (Shug McSween - Penguins blogger), with no credible sources. There is no rationality as to why Yzerman would entertain such a trade. I'm sure Yzerman has talked to BriseBois about a trade involving one of Johnson or Killorn, but I highly doubt the trade being discussed would ever come even remotely close to what Yzerman would accept. There's nothing wrong with exploring the trade rumor. There is something wrong, in my opinion, with trying to justify such an awful trade rumor. But hey, you do you. Again, Yzerman WOULDN'T do it. Nothing wrong with debating it. It probably never should have lasted this long, but whatever... We're all bored... I'm not offended. I just don't get it. I'm sure you agreed with the rumor to some extent in the beginning. Why else would you spend so much time trying to justify a nothing rumor? We got a 2nd round pick (likely around 40-45th overall) for taking on one year at $5.7M of Marc Staal. Why would we only get a 1st round pick (likely around 28-31st overall) for TWO big money, long term contracts? It makes zero sense. So this whole debate has been an attempt to change minds, including your own? Maybe you should have done what the rest of us did, have the internal debate, and come to the same conclusion, rather than spending two days and two pages trying to justify an unjustifiable trade rumor...

You said you wouldn't do it after about 3 or 4 posts of you trying to justify why "Yzerman might do it". I'm not sure why you'd try to justify something you disagree with. I'm also not sure why you think Yzerman "might" do something this dumb, when none of us dummies would do something this dumb... You can analyze different points of view, but why try to justify a point of view that you don't agree with? LOL You can post whatever you want. I'm not making any rules. I just think this whole conversation has been a complete waste of time, since you were very clearly disagreeing with me in the beginning, and now all of a sudden you're very clearly agreeing with me. Anyway, I'm done with this...

You went from trying your damndest to justify a trade involving both Johnson and Killorn and only one 1st round pick, to now not sure if you can justify a trade involving Johnson, Killorn, 1st round pick, 2nd round pick, and a goalie prospect... What gave it away? Was it when I said "I agree"? Yes, exactly what I was agreeing with... Nice to see you've joined us. A 1st round pick is not close to enough in terms of value for taking on two bad contracts... This conversation could have ended a page ago, but whatever. It's the dead of the offseason, and I was bored. Any more trade rumors involving the Wings that we can discuss to pass the next couple weeks before training camp?