krsmith17

The thing is, according to a lot of scouts and draft analysts, Kotkaniemi isn't considered a reach at 3 anymore. He's climbed the ranks that much. So if Bergevin is smart (he's not) he should take his guys at 3, rather than trading down and risk losing their chance to draft him.

Russo was already rewarded with 19 games in the NHL and looked awful.

@ChristopherReevesLegs @Buppy I don't think we're that far apart afterall. Good points and I agree with most of what you're both saying. I think the thing we disagree on, is the level of impact pre-season should have on a player making the team out of camp. Of course it shouldn't be the only factor, but if a player lights it up in pre-season it should be considered. In that situation, I'd like to see the young player given a look earlier in the regular season, that's all. I know it may not seem like it because we've been discussing the dude the past several pages, but I could honestly care less if Hicketts makes the team. It's not about that for me. I just want players that play well, to be rewarded, and to me, that starts with training camp and preseason. Since you brought up Turgeon, and he's probably more of the Hicketts equivalent of forwards, he had a strong season last year, similar to Hicketts the year before. What if he comes into camp, and outplays a bunch of bottom six guys? Do you still send him down? If so, fair enough, we disagree on that. If it were my decision I'd keep him up, and see if he could replicate that level of play in the regular season. Let him try to build on the confidence, rather than sending him down right away...

Athanasiou and one of our 3rd round picks for 10th overall?... That should be enough right?...

I mentioned this in a previous post, which is a huge reason I'm saying we shouldn't trade up. Pick best player available at 6, and try to move up after that.

I don't think it's a given that he will be given an opportunity this season. And to be honest, I don't even care if he is. What I care about, and what this is all about, is IF he proves himself in training camp / preseason (the way I think he did last year) and isn't given an opportunity, that's when it would bother me. I just hate that this organization keeps talking about how a player needs to "steal a job", when in my opinion, Hicketts did that last year and wasn't rewarded. My argument isn't that Hicketts should be on this roster, I could care less about that. My argument is that after his showing last year, he should have at least been given an opportunity. If he had started the season on the roster and struggled, whatever, send him down. I am not at all invested in Hicketts as a player. If he succeeds and becomes a bottom pairing defenseman, great. If not, no big loss. Svechnikov is in the same situation as Hicketts going into this season. He's on the bubble and needs to steal a job, correct? What if he comes into camp, plays great, puts up 6-7 points in 4 preseason games (more than any player on the team), and gets sent down? Would fans have any reason / right to complain about that?

I agree that we as fans shouldn't pretend to know better than management. But I also don't think we should just assume, just because they're managers, that every decision they make is the right one. I don't think I know more than Holland, and I certainly don't think I could do a better job than him as a general manager. But I'm not so blind and naive to think he never makes mistakes. I give credit where credit is due, but also criticize when I feel it's warranted. Of course we can't see all the behind the scenes stuff that goes into evaluating players. But based on what we can see, and articles I've read from people that actually do see "some" of the behind the scenes stuff, I think Hicketts should have been at least given an opportunity out of camp last year. He certainly should be given every opportunity this year, assuming he performs at the same level in training camp. Maybe Hicketts surprises and becomes a Krug type player for us in the next couple years. Maybe he falters and becomes a career AHLer. No one knows for sure what Hicketts will be at the NHL level, I just want him to be given an opportunity. I'm sure he will be... eventually.

Which is what makes this trade so dumb, and why Bergevin is one of, if not the worst GM in the league.

Not a bit. That's certainly one way to look at it. The way I see it, and the reason I find that situation so impressive for Bouchard, is that London traded away 4 of their top forwards (Robert Thomas, Max Jones, Cliff Pu and Sam Miletic) for a boat load of prospects and draft picks. They didn't trade away a single defenseman. So it's not like Bouchard's minutes significantly increased, or he needed to take on a bigger role on the back end. He just needed to continue anchoring the blueline, playing huge minutes (often upwards of 30 minutes a night), continue to lead on and off the ice (he was named captain after the deadline), and continue to produce without the same offensive support. I find it more impressive that London were rebuilding, trading off a lot of big names, but felt Bouchard was the guy they should keep around to guide the younger players. They could have gotten a huge return on Bouchard, but they elected to keep him. Bouchard thinks the game at an elite level, is said to be one of the best passers in the entire draft (outside of Merkley), can shoot the puck a ton, logs huge minutes and plays in all situations. He's known for his ability to quarterback the power-play, but doesn't rely on the PP to pad his stats. 54 of his 87 points came at even strength. It's been a long time since we've had an all around great two-way defenseman like Bouchard. He's definitely who I want at 6.

What else do we as fans have to evaluate players on other than the games, interviews and articles? He obviously proved he was worthy of at least an opportunity early on in the season ahead of Ouellet based on his play during those preseason games. So what do you think was the reason management decided to send him down? Do you think he had a bad attitude? Doubt that. Came in to camp out of shape? Doubt it. Or maybe it was like I said, just the easy way out. Send the waiver eligible player down because we can. I'm sure you're going to disagree, but I still say he deserved a look earlier last season and every opportunity to make it this season (along with other players). If they don't want players to play their way onto the roster, maybe they should stop saying things like I previously mentioned and what Blashill just said in a recent interview about the roster being "wide open"...

Remove Horvat, change the team to Chicago (8th overall) and I'd do it...

I completely agree with that strategy, we just have slightly different players we'd prefer at 6. I'd much rather move back, assuming 2-3 of the guys we want are still available, than any scenario of us moving up. If by "wants their C" you mean specifically Kotkaniemi, they're not going to give it up for peanuts. Like I said, the consensus amongst scouts and GM's is that the gap between Kotkaniemi and the rest of the players in that range, including Zadina has narrowed significantly. Kotkaniemi is no longer considered much of a reach at 3. If he's not a reach at 3, he certainly wouldn't be a reach at 4 or 5. There is rumored to be a number of teams interested in him. Who's to say Ottawa or Arizona wouldn't grab him with one of their picks? If Kotkaniemi is their guy, they should take him. They're not going to sell low on the pick, even if they think they can. Uugh, I definitely wouldn't for reasons above. I don't think there's any guarantee Zadina will be better than Kotkaniemi or Wahlstrom. Why give up multiple assets for a winger that may or may not be much better than a player we can get in the position we're already in?

I don't get why anyone would want to move up from 6 to 3 in this draft. It would likely cost a ton to move up those three slots. I don't see it being worth it. There's a clear 1-2 (Dahlin-Svechnikov), and the gap has closed significantly between 3-6, and even beyond 6. You want to trade up, and give away multiple assets for a player, that could potentially be available at 6? No, it's probably not likely that Zadina slips all the way to 6, but it is a possibility. Montreal could take Kotkaniemi, Ottawa could take Hughes, Arizona could take Tkatchuk, leaving one of Zadina, Wahlstrom, Bouchard or Dobson for Detroit to pick from. Stay at 6 and try to make a trade with Chicago or Edmonton for the 8th or 10th overall. That would be my strategy. Bob McKenzie compiles rankings from 10 NHL scouts to make his NHL Draft Rankings every year. Outside of the top 2, anything can happen. Of the 10 rankings, there are 12 different players that make the top 5. Custance has also echoed the same sentiment. There is just too little a gap between these players to make it worth moving up. Of course some scouts will have Zadina way ahead of whoever we end up picking, but there are also scouts that will have him below whoever we end up picking. It only matters where the Red Wings scouts have these players ranked, but I just can't see them justifying the huge price tag of moving up a few spots.

Exactly. I don't think Hicketts is anything special, but I still think he's an upgrade over several other players on the team. Why is that so difficult to understand? Hicketts played better than all of our bottom pair defensemen he was "competing against" in training camp / preseason, but yet still got demoted. Why? Because it was the "easy move". He could clear waivers. Others that didn't play as well, couldn't. Management and coaches always say "we want competition", "we want them to make our decision for us", "we want these young players to make a statement so we can't send them down". Hicketts made that statement and he still got sent down. This would never happen. Not because it's not close to being a fair trade, but because Larkin is the one player that Detroit are not trading unless it's a massive overpayment. Larkin is being groomed and will eventually become the next Red Wings captain.

No, you're absolutely right. Hicketts wasn't held back. He never proved anything in training camp / pre-season. He didn't have the best performance of all defensemen on the team... Nope. 4 assists, 10 shots on goal, 4 blocked shots and 13 hits in 4 games averaging 19 minutes a night... He played extremely well. Exactly what management wanted to see. Not a single person watching those games (except of course for Buppy and CRL) thought there was any way Hicketts could possibly be sent down after that showing. They had to make room for this kid, right? Wrong. He was sent back down and struggled big time. Probably because he was disinterested and felt he should be in Detroit. Should he have been? Yes. Was that the right attitude? Not at all. You can say, that was pre-season and he was playing against weaker competition and regular season is a different beast, etc. All true, but everyone else also played against the same weaker competition, but yet Hicketts was one of the most impactful players on the ice in each of the 4 games he played. Fast forward to January 22nd when he finally got the call to play in his first NHL game in New Jersey. He played 15 minutes that night, was a +1, and played very well, despite not putting up any points. I was in Detroit watching that game on the big screen at the MotorCity Casino Hotel Viewing Party with hundreds of Wings fans. I remember everyone saying how good Hicketts looked and how he was there to stay. Even Larry Murphy said after the game how much he loved Hicketts' game and that he should have been up long before that night. I was pretty excited to see him play live the following night against the Flyers, my first game at the LCA. He was sent back down that following morning... They inserted Ouellet back in (who is clearly a better player...) He didn't get called up again for another 2 months on March 27th against the Pens. He yet again played extremely well, putting up 2 assists, 6 blocked shots, 1 hit, in nearly 18 minutes, playing on both specialty teams. He played the following 3 games, before getting sent down for the last 2 games of the season. He played 5 games last season, leading the entire team with a +5. He put up 3 assist, 2 shots on goal, 12 blocked shots and 9 hits. The only negative on his stat line is the 5 giveaways and only 1 takeaway. He averaged over 17 minutes a night, playing on both specialty teams units. Of course I got dragged back into this. And you're right, I am going to say this isn't about Hicketts once again, because it's not. If Hicketts got traded tomorrow, I wouldn't give a s***. But when we have a 21 year old that has proven every opportunity he has gotten that he belongs on the team, has outplayed players on the team, he should be on the team. Period. Again, I don't see Hicketts ever being anything more than a bottom pairing defenseman. However, we have several bottom pairing defensemen on this team as bad or worse than Hicketts. That's my issue.

Yeah, I was kind of surprised nothing had already been started. I guess it's only now that anything relevant will start happening. Looking forward to this thread being busy this summer. I actually like both players. More so Galchenyuk. I think (hope) he will be great in Arizona. Bergevin truly is an idiot. I actually think he may be taking the throne from Chiarelli as worst GM. I've heard rumblings of them "not being done" and potentially going after O'Rielly next. Can't wait to see what they give up for him. But yeah, I think Kotkaniemi is their guy.

I'm just not too concerned about the backup goaltender right now. I wouldn't seriously have McCollum as the backup, just illustrating how little I care about that position at the moment. If it's Hutton or Bernier or whoever, great. Doesn't matter to me. I'm also completely okay with Howard re-signing for a couple years beyond this season (after we trade him at the deadline... lol). I only care about the development of Larsson, Petruzzelli and Fulcher. As long as one of them are capable of stepping in in a few years from now, when we're actually (hopefully) ready to compete, that's all that matters to me with goaltending right now.

Yeah, I didn't know that either. What makes you think it was Kotkaniemi? Any reason? Or just a gut feeling? I'm hoping we take Bouchard at 6 and move up to acquire another top 10 pick to take Wahlstrom or Kotkaniemi. The Hawks and Oilers will be looking for immediate help, so unless they think whoever will be available at 8 and 10 can make the team and make an impact right away, they may be open to trading those picks...

Yeah, I can somewhat agree with this. But for me anyway, I believe Svechnikov should be in that same category as Hronek. Hicketts I can kind of understand, because he's likely a bottom pairing, depth defenseman at best. Hronek and Svechnikov have top 4 / top 6 potential though. You need to make room for those kinds of young players when they prove they're ready, especially in a rebuild when you should be getting younger. Assuming they both come in to camp at the top of their game and "earn" a spot, there should be a roster spot cleared for them. I'm not so confident there will be though...

Yeah, I think he was just thinking about those 7 picks in the top 3 rounds, not realizing that our 4th round pick will be 98th overall. Good stuff. I really want to know who that player is. I think it could be Bouchard, and not just because that's who I want (maybe a little...). But like he mentioned with the interview process being a big thing with Rasmussen, Bouchard seemed to interview very well at the Draft Combine from the clips I've seen. Seems like a confident kid, that has the skill and size to back it up. Cleary's been in that role for a few years now. Seems to be doing a great job. "Overripe" better be a thing of the past... Yup, can't wait for the draft! Hoping Holland will be very active...

Absolutely. Bergevin is an idiot. I don't think it ends up being that lopsided, but it's just another of a long list of bad trades.

I just don't know why Kovalchuk would have any interest in leaving Russia to finally make a return to the NHL, only to sign with a basement team like the Wings... Maybe he hasn't had any access to North American sports news in the past 5+ years, and he still thinks we're an annual Cup contender... Seriously though, I think we have a better shot at Tavares than we do Kovalchuk. He's at the tail end of his career, and likely wants a legit shot at a Cup. At least with Tavares, he's still fairly young, coming from the Island to Detroit would actually be an upgrade, and he'd be THE guy here, and likely future captain once Zetterberg retires. Don't get me wrong, I don't think we're getting either. I think Tavares re-signs in New York and Kovalchuk signs in Vegas, San Jose or LA...

I was more so referring to Ericsson when I suggested the trade scenario. And I'm not saying that we should trade Ericsson and trade Jensen and trade / waive Ouellet. I'm just saying that there are always options to make room for kids if / when they're ready. A lot of people seem to think Hronek will force his way onto the roster to start this season. I'm not saying one way or the other, but how does he do that, if there's no openings available? It's up to the GM to make sure there are spots open or can be opened for the kids to make the roster. It hasn't been the case in the past. Will it be in the future? That's what I'm curious to find out in the coming weeks / months...

I like Frk too, and I always hoped he'd succeed in Detroit. I think he was oftentimes underutilized, but that's not really uncommon for young offense first players with the Wings. I'd like to see another short term, low cap contract, but I doubt he's brought back. Either way, I hope some team gives him a shot (no pun intended)...