krsmith17

Fake News! Zero chance that happens.

Nothing. Other than a bunch of fan bases hoping their team puts an offer sheet in on him...

This for me as well. I miss hockey. Looking forward to see if Larkin, Sheahan, DeKeyser and Mrazek can rebound from bad to awful seasons, and to see if Mantha and Athanasiou can build on solid seasons. Also looking forward to keep an eye on a few promising prospects. I'll be watching as many Griffins games as I can, to see if Svechnikov and Hicketts can take another step, and what Hronek can do in his first full season. I'll also be keeping a close eye on a few players in junior as well, mainly Cholowski, Sambrook, Rasmussen and Smith. I'm hoping to get down for a game as well. I'd love to get down for the season opener against Minnesota, but that's not going to happen. I'm thinking maybe December or January...

So you think Tatar is a 3rd line winger? You don't think Athanasiou or Svechnikov will develop into anything more than 3rd liners? You don't think Cholowski will develop into anything more than a 3rd pair defenseman? Tatar is a top 6 winger. There's no reason to assume we won't re-sign Nyquist, who is also a top 6 winger. All of Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou, Rasmussen and Svechnikov have top 6 potential. Cholowski has top pair potential. Of course not every player will reach their ceiling, but I think it's reasonable to assume that at least a couple will. It's also possible that a couple exceed expectations as well. We have a decent core to build around, we just need another couple (not five) high end talents.

No, but there are always loopholes... I fully expect Zetterberg's back to suddenly start acting up again in two years time... This team is going to look very different in a couple years. I just hope we're somewhat competitive again by then... We're going to need a lot of players to hit their ceilings, a few others to exceed expectations, and draft a couple top end talents... Easy Peasy.

Pretty much exactly what I'd like to see. Only think is, I wouldn't mind Svech starting the season in GR. If he can put up a point per game (or close to it) down there for 20-30 games, he should be first injury call-up. I'd also switch Daley and DeKeyser, since DeKeyser seemed way out of place on the top pair last season.

Russo? Seriously? So you think he has a shot at being an NHL player, but not Hicketts, Hronek or Saarijarvi? I'd put Russo at the bottom of that list despite being closer to being NHL ready now. Sproul has played a whopping 28 games in the NHL, and has 7 points, has looked very impressive in a few games, and very bad in a few, which is to be expected of a player just entering the league. 0.25 points per game isn't anything to scoff at for a young defenseman. He still has the potential to be a solid top 4 (at worst bottom pair) offensive defenseman. The fact that you're ready to give up on him after 28 games is asinine to me.

I said right from the beginning that if he were signed, he would likely expect to start in the NHL. All that stuff about him playing in Grand Rapids was just to point out that I wouldn't want him taking ice time down there either. The Daley signing and my reasoning for not liking it was exactly that, he pushed everyone else down the depth chart. And the same would go for Butcher being signed. And no, that doesn't necessarily mean he would be better than everyone pushed down below him. If Butcher were signed, Hronek and Saarijarvi would be below him for sure, despite both having much higher ceilings and possibly even being better right now. The bolded is exactly the point I argued with the Daley signing and a huge reason we shouldn't sign Butcher. Of course players should be given every opportunity to prove they're better than whatever coaching / management have them pigeon-holed. The Daley signing took an opportunity away from the likes of Ouellet or Sproul, and signing Butcher would likely take an opportunity away from Hronek, Saarijarvi or someone else deserving. Butcher's camp said that Detroit was high on his list of landing spots. So what changed in the past couple weeks? Maybe he realized Detroit would be a horrible choice because there are way too many defensemen fighting for one or two spots. There are 8-10 defensemen vying for spots in both Detroit and Grand Rapids. Like I said, too much depth can definitely be a bad thing, otherwise, why not just go out and sign Polak as well? If we could trade Hicketts (who I think is a similar style player) and then sign Butcher, I guess I'd be okay with it, but I'm not okay with just signing Butcher. It makes no sense to me. My reasoning to not sign Butcher boils down to, we don't have room for him on the NHL roster or the AHL roster, we don't have the cap space (still trying to sign our own RFA), we have more than enough similar depth players, and I just don't think he will be that good. He's a diminutive defenseman, former 5th round pick, that put up less than stellar numbers in 4 seasons of NCAA hockey. I honestly can't think of a single reason I would want to sign him right now...

I'm not "spinning" anything. Sorry if I didn't articulate exactly what I meant from the beginning, but the point remains, regardless of the reason(s), that I didn't / don't think we should be in on Butcher for various reasons. So what makes you think he's better than our 7th, 8th or even 9th defenseman? He shouldn't be given a spot by any team immediately, but there are teams that could and likely will offer him just that. DeKeyser wasn't "given" a spot, but I'm sure during the interview process, Holland made it very clear that he would be given every opportunity to make the team, and he did. There's a reason he's not offering the same to Butcher, despite our defense being much weaker since then, he's just not that good. Great job with the hyperbole... We absolutely could offer him what he wants, and a team likely will, but we shouldn't, because we already have a log jam. It's not about having a strong defense or prospect pool, it's about having a surplus of mediocre defensemen. No one would argue that we are strong on D, but most would agree that we have a ton of D on the team and in the system that could fill in on the 3rd pair. Daley wasn't a depth signing, and Sulak is going back to Europe so he won't effect anyone in the system.

I haven't seen anything definitive about Sproul not being ready, just that there is some uncertainty.

Exactly my thoughts as well. I wasn't a fan of the Daley signing for that reason. Very good player, but not a good fit for where we're at in our "rebuild / retool". Unless, like you said, he knows that someone will start on LTIR, I have no idea what he's doing... I'm not sure he does anymore either...

Man, if Holland waives Sproul, he really needs to go. His inability to manage the cap is getting out of hand. I know we haven't lost any players of much significance to waivers yet, but we did just waive Jensen last season (luckily he cleared). He went from being waived, to one of our 3 protected defensemen in the expansion draft, to a fixture in our top 4. It took Jensen that long to prove his worth and Sproul is two years younger. To give up on him now would be terrible asset management. But of course, best case scenario for him here would be our 7th defenseman and play sporadically anyway, so he'd be better off waived and claimed by a team that would actually give him a shot...

He is likely looking for a legit shot at cracking an NHL roster, if not immediately, in the not too distant future. Whichever NHL lineup he believes he has the best shot at cracking will likely be his landing spot. If Holland said he will be given a legit shot to make the team in camp (and we didn't already have 3-4 guys (Ouellet, Sproul, Russo, *Hicketts) vying for that spot), there's a chance he'd choose us. You really think he's going to go to a team that would keep him in the minors for 3 years? Not a chance. He would expect to be ahead of Saarijarvi, Hronek, Lindstrom, Kotkansalo, Cholowski, etc. I didn't say he isn't or never will be any good. I said I don't expect him to be anything more than a bottom pair defenseman. There's a huge difference. I don't think he will be much, if at all better than any of the other glut of defensemen we have chomping at the bit. And yes, I do think he could have potentially taken a job from someone that was more deserving, because I believe in order to sign him, a team is going to have to have a spot available, or at least a high probability of him being able to take a spot. He wouldn't (shouldn't) have had that with the Wings. "Too much depth is not the reason"? I'd love to hear what the reason is then, since you're obviously in the know...

Umm yeah... What's your point? You must have missed the post where I mentioned all the players that are guaranteed a spot in both Detroit and Grand Rapids... Yeah, I'm the one not making any sense... How is drafting players to hopefully play for your team 2-3 years from now even remotely similar to signing a free agent to play for your team immediately? Maybe if you compared signing Butcher to an NHL UFA, which if you remember I was against the Daley signing as well. And that didn't even have anything to do with Daley as a player, as I think he is and will be a very good player for us for the next three seasons, but I just want to make room for the players we have been developing over the past several seasons. We don't need Butcher. We shouldn't be looking to add anymore depth defensemen when we already have a surplus. You disagree? Cool... I wonder why?... Maybe because Holland realized how dumb it would be to go further over the cap to sign a depth defenseman when they already have 3+ players that can fill that spot, and desperately need cap space to sign one of their better young forwards...

I would. Trade Athanasiou for Jake Bean. Carolina gets much needed help up front, and we get that potential number one defenseman that we so desperately need, while freeing up cap space. I love AA, but we have a few top line potential forwards. I'm not sure if we have a single top pair potential defenseman. Maybe Cholowski develops into one, but we'd still need another. I'm not "threatened by Butcher", I just don't think he will be anything more than a depth defenseman at the NHL level. Regarding the bolded, that's exactly what will happen if we sign Butcher. So why would a team that is up against the cap, can't afford to sign one of their better young forwards, attempt to sign a mediocre, more expensive defenseman, just so they can waive one of their own? I'd be shocked if Butcher is much, if at all better than Sproul, and I'd rather keep the 6'4", 210lbs defenseman that we have developed for the past 5 years and still has a ton of upside, over the 5'10", 190lbs defenseman from the outside that might be as good as a Russo or Hicketts. I find it hilarious that LeftWinger, of all people, is on board with this signing. He goes off every day about how we can't afford to sign Athanasiou, but he wants to sign a bottom pair defenseman, when we already have 8 that are more than capable of filling out the bottom half of the defense... If we signed Butcher and traded a Russo, Renouf, McIlrath or Hicketts, whatever, mediocre in, mediocre out. But I do believe that too much depth at one position can be a bad thing, and I also don't agree with developing high end prospects in Toledo. For the most part, players (not goalies) that are developed in the ECHL, never develop into anything more than lower end players. Do you think Hronek and Saarijarvi are lower end prospects? Detroit - Guaranteed a spot - Daley, Green, DeKeyser, Jensen, Kronwall, Ericsson (6) Fighting for a spot - Ouellet, Sproul (2) Grand Rapids - Guaranteed a spot - Lashoff, Russo, Renouf, McIlrath, Hicketts (5) / Fighting for a spot - Hronek, Saarijarvi, Sulak (3) So I ask again, where does Butcher fit in? Detroit? We lose at least one, possibly two of Ouellet and Sproul. Grand Rapids? Both Hronek and Saarijarvi start in Toledo.

Does the better player always win the job with this team though? I know you're going to say yes, but I'd argue no. So, we sign him and he makes the Wings out of camp, Sproul gets waived and claimed. Butcher ends up being a mediocre bottom pairing defenseman, while Sproul ends up being a 2nd pairing, power-play specialist. Not saying that's what would happen, but it would be a possibility. A chance I personally wouldn't want to take. Scenario two, we sign him, and assign him to Grand Rapids. He likely wouldn't take minutes from Lashoff, Renouf, Russo or Hicketts, but he could take minutes and a spot in the lineup from Hronek and / or Saarijarvi because he's "more experienced" (not necessarily the better player). This is all my personal opinion, and I just doubt he's anything more than a depth defenseman at the NHL level. I'd prefer to develop the kids we have coming up, over a 22 year old, undersized, former 5th round pick, that put up decent numbers in college. Maybe he ends up developing into another Rafalski type player, but I guess that's a risk I'd take on not pursuing him. I think it's a lot more likely he develops into another Russo type (if that good)...

There was plenty of interest in Russo across the league, maybe not quite as much as there has been in Butcher, but does that mean he will be that much better? All 31 teams want Butcher? Really? I haven't seen / heard / read that anywhere...

No it doesn't. We were on the winning end of a college free agent signing two years ago. Exact same situation. Russo was drafted by the Islanders, refused to sign and became a free agent, and signed with us. Russo put up slightly better numbers (41 points (15 goals, 26 assists) in 40 games vs. 37 points (7 goals, 30 assists) in 43 games) at the same age. He also had a slightly better points per game (0.66 vs. 0.65) during his time in the NCAA. Do you think Butcher is that much better than Russo? Do you think Russo is anything more than a depth defenseman? Sproul also has a ton of accomplishments over the years, including CHL defenseman of the year, OHL first All-Star team, OHL most points by a defenseman / most goals by a defenseman (back to back years), OHL most outstanding defenseman, AHL all rookie team. And yet most here, including yourself are ready to give up on him at the age of 24, despite not getting much of an opportunity at the NHL level... There's a ton of hype surrounding Butcher right now because it's the dead of the offseason. I'd be shocked if he develops into anything more than a bottom pair (maybe lower level middle pair) defenseman, and we already have a surplus of those. I hope he signs with Minnesota tomorrow, so we can stop hearing all the overhype on this kid...

So we sign Butcher, and send him down to the AHL. Then what? He takes valuable minutes away from Hicketts, Hronek and Saarijarvi. No thanks. Again, we have more than enough depth at defense, we need high end talent, and that's not going to come from a college free agent signing or UFA signing. We need to acquire that coveted top end defenseman through the draft or via trade. What makes you think that Butcher is better than Ouellet or Sproul? He may be, but I doubt it and certainly wouldn't bank on it. Do you have a link to that article on Trouba?

Fixed.

I agree on Butcher. We don't need him, and I personally don't want him. There's no question Holland has been awful at cap management, and I agree that he should be gone ASAP, which will likely (hopefully) be after this season. The fact that he's waiting it out, hoping things will work out via LTIR again is absurd. I haven't really thought about the possibility of Athanasiou missing camp, mostly because I still believe a deal will be made before then, but it is a good point. I'll be pissed along with every other Wings fan if that were to happen, but until it does, I'm not going to get too worked up.

Regarding the bolded... a lot of teams would take Ericsson at $2.125M. As long as he can stay healthy, he is a solid 3rd pairing defenseman, and that's a very reasonable cap hit for such a defenseman. Again, ANY player CAN be traded... Now, of course we're talking about Holland here, so I don't have the most confidence in him pulling off a trade either. But until we lose Athanasiou to an offer sheet (not going to happen), or he's forced to sit half the season (very unlikely), I'm not going to get too bent out of shape about it. Like I've said numerous times now, maybe, just maybe, Holland does know something we don't (crazy, I know) about one or two players being unlikely to start the season, despite what he has told media.

I would think that Holland would match any "reasonable" offer sheet, and worry about getting cap compliant afterward. How he would do that, I have no idea, but there are always options to shed salary. Athanasiou is worth more than a 2nd round pick in my opinion. The only way I'd consider not matching an offer sheet is if a team drastically overpaid, offering a contract north of $3.926M, giving up a 1st and 3rd. Even then, it would depend on the team. If it were a team like Buffalo, sure, let him walk and get a high 1st, if it were Washington, I'd probably match the offer. It's a moot point though, as no team is going to offer sheet AA.

Like who? Ericsson? E is literally the only defenseman I'd be willing to swap with Marchenko, and that's purely based on their contracts. Ericsson is the better player, but if we could have Marchenko at $1.45M for one season and move Ericsson at $4.25M for three seasons, I'd do that in a heartbeat. That would save us $2.8M on a player that should be our 7th defenseman. We have a ton of depth (too much if that's possible) at every position, even defense. What we lack is high end talent. Marchenko would just add to the cluster of mediocre players that are borderline NHLers. For the same reason, I don't think we should be pushing for Butcher either, who I think will be another bottom 4 defenseman at best. We do NOT need any more bottom 4 defensemen / bottom 6 forwards. If anything, we should be shedding these types of players, to make room for a trade, or for some of the prospects coming up over the next couple seasons. Stay away from Marchenko Kenny...

Yeah, I agree, other than the bolded... LeftWinger? I don't think 60 is out of reach though. Yeah, he's still young and adapting to the NHL. Athanasiou is the type of player, I'm okay with and would like to see them try to mold into more of a two-way player. Same goes for Larkin. I just want them to leave Mantha alone and let him do what he does best, score goals. However, I do believe Athanasiou has that puck retrieval ability in his game. He's never been a defensive dynamo and likely never will be, but I remember watching a lot of him in junior, in particular in Barrie, and he was a puck hound. He rarely lost board battles, maybe because he had the size and strength, something he still needs to work on against the bigger, stronger NHL players. I think if he were told to be that guy on that line, he wouldn't excel over time.