krsmith17

Zetterberg does need his minutes reduced, but I think it's naive to think he will be demoted to the 3rd line. I'm okay with him playing in the top 6, I still think he's a top 6 player, I just don't want to see him at center. Whether he's on Larkin's wing or Nielsen's wing, doesn't really matter to me, I just don't want to see the team rely on him near as much as they have in the past. It's time for other players to step up in a big way, with Datsyuk gone and Zetterberg play diminishing...

Okay, fair enough, but that doesn't change the fact that Smith is and should be used as a top 4 defenseman. Jurco is also a frequent healthy scratch, but would likely be a staple on any other team's third line or even second line for some teams.

C'mon kickazz, you can't be all about analytics the way you are and then say that Smith isn't a top 4 defenseman. Every advanced stat says he is a borderline elite defenseman, but because of the way he's used in Detroit, he's a bottom pair guy? If that's the case, throw out the analytics on Miller and Glendening too then. They're middle 6 forwards using the logic that the minutes they play dictate what type of players they are... By the way, I'm not saying I think Smith is borderline elite, like his advanced stats suggest, or that he's a top pair defenseman, but he absolutely is a top 4 guy on just about any team in the league...

First of all, I never said I'm "writing off Saarijarvi". I was simply replying to GMR's post "name a current highly thought of prospect that will be on this list in 20 years"... Based on that, Saarijarvi would be my pick. I think Saarijarvi is much more likely to become a bust than Svechnikov, which was another player mentioned. If you think Saarijarvi is going to become a stud, good for you, but was there really any need in the insults? I wasn't "wrong" about Smith, I've always said he will become a legit top 4, puck moving defenseman, which is exactly what he is. The jury is still out on Jurco and Sproul, but both are just 23 years old, and still likely to become impact NHL players. I still think Jurco will be a legit middle 6 skilled winger, and Sproul will be a legit top 4 defenseman, much like Smith. Whether that's with Detroit or another team is yet to be determined... As for Larkin, I did want to him to start in Grand Rapids, but what exactly was I "wrong" about? I knew he was going to be a stud. Do you actually think that ripping up the American League for a year would have stunted his development? Larkin is a special player, and if he started in Grand Rapids, it would have been no time before he got a call-up anyway...

I disagree. We would still have a ton of defensively responsible forwards, at least one on every line... That lineup would be nothing like the Oilers...

Exactly. And who would have a problem with Mantha playing on the "4th line" if the lines were constructed as such? I have no problem with Mantha or Jurco or whoever playing on that line with Helm and Sheahan, but I do have a problem with them playing on the same line, but with Glendening and Miller / Ott... I'd love to see this team get away from the "defensive stalwarts", and lean more toward rolling 4 solid scoring lines. Unfortunately though, that's never going to happen, unless all three get injured in training camp...

I'd take Glendening over Ott, Ott over Miller, and Miller over no one... I'd be okay with any one of them on the 4th line, I'm just hoping it's only one (Glendening) and the other two are healthy scratched / waived. I just have a feeling we're going to want to see how the worst possession players in the NHL could do on a line against top lines in the league... Which lineup (not necessarily lines) is better? Zetterberg - Nielsen - Nyquist Abdelkader - Larkin - Tatar Helm - Sheahan - Vanek Miller - Glendening - Ott Jurco / Pulkkinen OR Zetterberg - Nielsen - Nyquist Abdelkader - Larkin - Tatar Jurco - Athanasiou - Vanek Helm - Sheahan - Mantha Glendening / Pulkkinen

I agree that Athanasiou will likely start in Grand Rapids, and I also agree that it's not the worst thing that could happen. However, he wouldn't be sent down just so the Griffins would have a number one center. When we lost Miele, Ben Street was brought in, and he is more than capable of filling the same role Miele did for the past couple years. I would have loved to see Athanasiou start on the big club, had we not signed Miller, Ott and Vanek, but unfortunately, I don't see Athanasiou up with the mess of this current roster. One of two things need to happen, the very unlikely trade, or the inevitable injury. I don't see a trade happening, but an injury could occur as early as October (or as late as February). He will certainly be the first call up, and I see him playing somewhere around 60 games for the Wings this year. Unfortunately, again unless there's a trade or we're struck hard with injuries, I don't see much of a chance for Mantha either. He's likely number 2 on our call up list, and I don't see him playing any more than 20 or so games. Both these guys are waiver exempt though, so I'd much rather send either or even both down to Grand Rapids than risk losing either Ouellet or Sproul for nothing. Holland created this mess, so I just hope he can somehow fix it, and relieve this team of this massive log jam. We have way too many good players, not close to enough great players...

No Buppy, I'm not wrong just because you say I am... There are ALWAYS trades to be made to improve your team. There are currently number one defensemen available, and we could acquire one if Holland were willing to part with the assets to get it done... Unfortunately I don't believe he is... Yes, I am assuming Holland isn't willing to part with some of his bigger assets to make a big trade, and yes, Holland's trade history (or lack thereof) is evidence that he doesn't actively seek trades / want to give up top players / prospects / picks. Yes, you are assuming Holland is willing to part with some of his bigger assets if a trade were presented to him. What exactly makes you think that though? At least I'm using his trade history as an indicator, you're basing your assumption on what exactly? That not many big name players are traded, so that must mean Holland is willing but not able?... Internet.Unknown mentioned that he/she isn't a "Holland apologist", which I would probably consider myself. I've defended Holland countless times on here, but the fact that anyone is trying to defend Holland's ability to make trades is mind boggling to me. He is and has been a phenomenal general manager for the Red Wings, but he hasn't been adequate at making the necessary trades to fill holes in quite some time... I found this really funny though... "Sorry, just not going to give you the last word just because you say I should"... "But I don't want to endlessly debate hypotheticals"... Haha when did I say you should give me the last word? I said "we" should stop this debate because it is an endless argument. We don't agree. Who cares? Are you sure you don't want to endlessly debate though? Anyway, that's it for me. Go ahead and "get the last word"...

We're all aware that trades for top players are rare, but they do happen. Just about every year (sometime multiple times a year) a big name is traded, sometimes for more than he's worth, sometimes for less, some are known to be on the trading block, some aren't... Big name players do get traded, just never to the Wings. I don't know the trade history for every team, but I would bet most (except Detroit) have been in a trade involving a top player in the last 10+ years... "Holland has never been one to make trades just for sake of trades, and he's been pretty clear that he's not interested in just swapping players." How would this be considered trading "just for sake" of trading? We've had a hole on our defense for the past 4 seasons. The only way to fill that hole in such a short time is to make a trade. That's trading out of necessity, not just for the sake of making a trade... Serious question, is there a team that has been in more desperate need to acquire a top pairing defenseman in the past 4 years? I don't think there has been. There are a couple that may be close, including New Jersey, but they just traded away their future number one for Hall... There are 29 other teams in the league, all of which I would argue have a better, in some cases, two or three better defensemen than our current number one. There are also quite a few teams that are absolutely stacked with defensemen and are starving for offense. We have a surplus of forwards, and a need for defensemen. You think because a trade hasn't been made, that there must not be a fit. Like I said, I don't buy that. And yes, this debate is going in circles, with no way to tell who's right or wrong, so let's just end it there. I think there are trades to be made that would bring in a legit number one defenseman. You don't...

What exactly am I stretching??? You're saying that because a trade hasn't been made, there just isn't a trade out there worth making. I'm saying that's bulls***. There's always trades out there to improve your team. Good GM's find and make those trades, for whatever reason Holland hasn't been able to that. No, just because Hamilton was traded for picks, it doesn't necessarily mean that another team would be willing to trade a defenseman of his caliber for picks. But it doesn't mean they wouldn't either. You think just because Holland hasn't done it, that such a trade is not available to be made? I believe because it's been done before (a year ago), it could potentially be done again. It's just a matter of finding it... I realize you're talking about why Boston wouldn't trade with us, and I'm not suggesting they would have, but not a single team I have mentioned as possible trading partners is a divisional rival. So why wouldn't Winnipeg, Anaheim, St. Louis, Colorado, Arizona, Carolina or Columbus want to trade with us? A trade needs to make sense for both teams? The other team would actually have to want what we have to offer? What a concept... Come on man, stop trying to dumb down the conversation... "I have to assume that some if not all would be available for the right deal". Yes, some may be available if the right deal fell in his lap. If Cheveldayoff called and said he's shopping Trouba, and he wants some of those pieces, then maybe he'd be willing to move some. Of course, that's not going to happen. Has Holland called Cheveldayoff, offering those pieces for Trouba? We'll never know for certain, but I have my doubts... Do you honestly think it's a coincidence that Holland trades WAY less than any other team? It's not. I'm not suggesting we should blow up the team, but there is a middle ground...

I don't understand why you would think Holland is willing to move top players / prospects / picks in a trade to acquire an impact player. And I'm not talking about a past their prime rental at the deadline, I'm talking about a top end player that can help us this year and in the future... He hasn't. He doesn't. What makes you think he would? No, we won't be able to keep them all, and unless he's able to pull something off, we will lose one of Ouellet or Sproul and possibly Frk... Why are other teams' *picks* more valuable than ours? Again, the Hamilton trade was just picks... Calgary is the only team capable of pulling off that sort of trade? "We don't have the assets" is flat out wrong...

"Svech (as well as Jurco and Pulk) aren't anything more than what Holland has traded in the past"? When has Holland traded a Svechnikov type prospect? He hasn't and I'm not so sure he would. And that there is a problem... "We did just trade our 1st, so obviously picks are on the table in the right deal"? That's a little misleading don't ya think? Yes, we did technically trade our first, but we did so to trade a dead contract and move back in the draft. Not really the same thing as trading next year's first for a player, to upgrade out team now... Why do you keep talking about more players not necessarily making the trade better? I'm aware of that and I'm not the one that is suggesting throwing together a bunch of middling prospects, hoping to get a stud... Mantha and Svechnikov are not middling prospects though. Nyquist and Tatar are legit top 6 wingers. First round picks (as well as second round picks) carry a ton of value in trades (again, look at the Hamilton trade)... We have a lot of nice pieces. You don't think teams would have interest, I do. Like you said, we're both making assumptions and we clearly disagree here, so let's leave it at that...

"Top-pair, or even potential top-pair, defensemen just don't get traded very often." Key there is "very often", meaning they do get traded. Dougie Hamilton was never on the trading block as far as anyone knew. Calgary had one of the worst defensive corps in the entire league, so what did Treliving do? He made some calls and eventually struck a deal with Sweeney to acquire Hamilton (who is a legit top pair defenseman). He did that without using a single player or prospect, a first and 2 second round picks... I put Trouba in that same category of top end talent that will eventually become a legit top pair defenseman. Now maybe he and Cheveldayoff are close to hammering down a new deal, or maybe they're not... And maybe he'd be willing to trade him for the right package? The point is, there are always possible trades to be made, but for whatever reason, Holland isn't willing to part with the pieces necessary to get it done... And again, your opinion is that we don't have those pieces, I don't share that opinion. I believe Nyquist, Tatar, Mantha, Athanasiou, Svechnikov, among others are attractive pieces, I just don't think any of those are being dangled as trade bait...

Maybe top "tier" wasn't the correct wording, but I don't just mean the elite of the elite. I didn't expect us to land Subban, and I don't expect us to go after Doughty or Pietrangelo either. However, I do think there are high end impact defensemen that could be had for the right price, even if we have to slightly overpay... Any of the names that have already been thrown out there, including Trouba, Barrie, Shattenkirk, etc. could be had with a decent enough package. I also think there are a number of top defense prospects that could be made available if the price is right, including Theodore, Werenski, Sanheim, etc. And no, I don't believe every team would start and end a conversation with Larkin. Top players / prospects can and do get traded for much less... It doesn't even need to be a blockbuster trade. I'd be okay seeing Holland do anything proactive in a trade. Why not trade Ouellet plus for a pick or another decent prospect with years remaining? New Jersey is just one team that is looking for defense help, there could be a fit there. Carolina are starving for offense and we have a log jam of forwards. Why not trade one of our many forwards (plus prospects / pick(s) for one of the Canes many young defensemen? Nyquist / Tatar / Jurco / Pulkkinen / Sheahan for Murphy / Pesce / Slavin / Fleury / Carrick...

I think the fact that you don't think that package even gets a conversation started with Bergevin is "hysterically ridiculous"... But that's beside the point. You don't think there's a deal out there to be made involving a top pair defenseman? I 100% do. I think Holland is great at many things when it comes to managing a team. Making trades in the cap era, unfortunately is not one of them. I do think we have the assets to acquire a dozen different top tier defensemen. Holland's just not willing to put the pieces in place to get a deal done. That's my opinion.

I'm not suggesting trading spare parts, I'd overpay for a top pair defenseman. You don't think Mantha, Ouellet and two first round picks would have been enough to get Subban? Maybe it wouldn't have been, but I think Montreal would have listened, especially with the two Quebec natives included. That trade likely wouldn't have worked for us anyway, with the salary, I'm just saying there are always deals out there. Why is it that every other team out there is able to make trades, big or small, but the best trade Holland has made in years was Kindl to Florida for a 6th round pick? There are teams out there loaded with defensemen and would like to add depth at forward. We are loaded with depth at forward and need to add a defenseman. Think there might be a fit there with a team like Anaheim? Or Nashville? Or Carolina?...

No matter how you slice it, they were not impactful trades in my opinion. Trading assets for way past their prime 36 and 38 year olds, when you're a team in transition is not good management in my opinion. This team is and has been in transition for a few years now and we need to continue building toward the future. I think it was silly to think that team could have won it all that year, with or without those two. Of course they "could have", but the odds were against them, with powerhouse teams like Chicago, Anaheim, Tampa and Washington... Hey I'm one of the few here that values the streak, and I want it to continue, but not at the expense of the future. Anyway, we're getting way off topic. My point had nothing to do with the streak or past trades. My point is that Holland needs to sac up and make a trade to bring in a top pair defenseman. He hasn't made any such significant trade in well over a decade, so I'm not so sure he has it in him. Of course, I'd love for him to prove me wrong, I just don't see it happening.

I understand why he made those deals, I just don't necessarily agree with the reasoning. Neither were truly impact players and both were brought in as rentals. It serves no purpose in my opinion to relinquish assets, no matter the value, for an average player on an average team, trying to squeeze into the playoffs... Any GM can make such meaningless trades. I want to see Holland make a true impact trade that will address an actual need. Something that will impact this team this season and beyond, not just a rental. We need a top pair defenseman, not depth at forward...

I.U, did you not read the part of my post regarding those exact Legwand and Cole deals? Even though Jarnkrok isn't an elite center, and Janmark probably wouldn't have been given the same opportunity here, they're still not great trades. Same thing if we traded Holmstrom for Ladd or Versteeg at last year's trade deadline. People would have been pissed, not because anyone expects Holmstrom to be an elite center, but because a team in transition, aka not a Cup contender, should not be wasting assets on rentals. If Holland had the balls to put any of those assets together to make a legitimate impact trade, no one would say s***... Of course none of those players would garner an impact player by themselves, but in a package including a top 6 forward and possibly a pick, they absolutely would. Holland has made less trades than any other team in the last however many years, and I'd bet even less impact trades. I love that we draft and develop so well, but when you have a glaring hole on your back end for 4 years now, something needs to be done about it. We need to pony up some assets and bring in that top pair defenseman...

The prospects that fans (including myself) have complained about losing, are the ones that we've traded away for way past their prime rentals... There's a big difference between losing a prospect, whether it's a top prospect or a project prospect, in a trade for a Legwand, Cole or Zidlicky or Trouba, Barrie or even Fowler...

Internet.Unknown, what are you talking about? First of all, who's "losing their s***"? Second, what prospects in our system has anyone ever compared to Gretzky? And what impact trade has Holland ever made that fans lost their s*** over because we lost prospects?... Holland doesn't make impact trades. There is not a prospect in our system that I wouldn't give up in a trade for a Trouba type defenseman. So again, what are you talking about?...

I'm at the point where I don't have any confidence that Holland will pull off a big trade to bring in that much needed top pair defenseman. I don't buy that he's unable to, or we don't have the pieces other teams want, I just think he's unwilling to give up the assets to get it done. I think a package including Nyquist / Tatar, plus a prospect and / or pick(s) would be enough to get a top pair defenseman, he's just not willing to put together the necessary pieces to get such a deal done...

1 is by far the best, and seems like the only choice... 4 is awful in my opinion... 1, 6, 2, 5, 7, 3, 4.

Who on that list would you rather? I'd personally rather DeKeyser over every single one of them. Of course you could make a case for maybe one or two, but none are much better, if at all... I think 25-35 points is reasonable expectations for DeKeyser next season, and that's assuming we don't get an upgrade like Trouba or Barrie. If we were able to get a defenseman like one of those two, I wouldn't say 35-45 would be out of the question in the coming years... That would be very solid production for a $5M per year 2 / 3 defenseman... It's up to Kenny to land that top pair guy to pair with him... As I pointed out above, he is right there with all of those other 2 / 3 / 4 defensemen, in terms of salary, so no, it wasn't over payment as far as I'm concerned. If he were to hit the open market this summer, he would have gotten $6M per easy in my opinion... If we're somehow able to get rid of Ericsson's and Howard's contracts in the next year, we'll be in good shape. DeKeyser's contract is fair for what he brings to the team, and of all the things to b**** about this team lately, this contract is right at the bottom in my opinion...