krsmith17

What else would you like as proof? Would you prefer to take someone else's opinion as proof? A stat holds much more water than anyone's opinion, and that goes for everything, not just hockey... No one is asking you to believe that Smith is better than DeKeyser based on stats, because he's not. Stats aside from corsi prove that he's not. Just like I'm not going to believe that Smith sucks just because someone has the opinion / bias that he sucks... Same goes for any player... Nyquist, Tatar, Pulkkinen, Helm, etc...

I feel like Ben Street has been brought in to be Miele's replacement, and from everything I've read, he seems to be a similar style player, and as good or better. Matt Lorito seems to be another decent pickup as well. We also added Eddie Pasquale, who is a very good minor league goaltender. I watched him a fair bit over the past few years as he's played with my hometown St. John's IceCaps... I guess it will be between him and Paterson to battle it out to be number 2 behind Coreau, and the other will start in Toledo...

Hahaha this is the most pointless conversation / debate ever! Not a single person supporting analytics has said that the only thing you need to judge a player is stats, but yet people that are against all of these advanced stats keep coming back and saying that you can't judge a player solely on stats... Well no s***, that's why we've said over and over again that watching is very important as well... But make no mistake, all of these stats are used to aid hockey professionals, from scouts to coaches to broadcasters to writers and so on... Obviously there are things that these stats cannot tell you, like potential, work ethic, determination, stick handling, shooting and play-making ability, and that is why it's great that most of us are fortunate enough to be able to watch the games... However, some of these things like quality of teammates and opponents, whether a player is sheltered or not, etc, etc that people are claiming cannot be tracked through these advanced stats are flat out wrong. These are the exact types of things that are tracked through advanced stats. I guarantee a blind person that has never watched a hockey game in his / her life, but has access to all of these advanced stats, would be able to give a better analysis on who is the top 10 players at each position than someone that only relies on watching the games... You know why? Bias. Every single person here, has a bias for or against certain players, and unless you're willing to dig deeper and rely on some of these stats to broaden your perception, you will continue to be in the dark... Great post by the way ToastyWing. How did you come up with so much info? Was it through stats? Or are you recalling all of this information from all the games you've watched over the years? nyquististhefuture, you're right, Hakan Andersson didn't use advanced stats when he drafted these guys, and still doesn't because most of these stats are still foreign to developmental leagues, especially in Europe. I doubt many amateur scouts use the advanced stats, but you can bet your a** every single pro scout uses at least some of them... They'd be fools not to. And as much as I love Hakan for the amazing players he's brought the Wings, for every Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Datsyuk we've been fortunate enough to have, there has been a lot more Motkov, Wikstrom, Petrasek, etc. that have been complete busts. And there's no denying that he hasn't had a pick that looks like a future hall of famer since those guys, back when he was one of the few scouts that was willing to take gambles on these European kids...

Dickie, the problem with that theory is that stats do exactly that. They are precisely how you account for the minutes an individual player is playing. There are stats out there for virtually everything you want / need to know in a hockey game. The problem is finding and using the appropriate information to assess a player. Of course you use your eyes to view the game as well, but using only your eyes is what causes a major bias...

VM, the numbers absolutely do hold up if you understand what they represent. Like I said, they're not the be-all, end-all, so unless you're using other stats, they're obviously going to give you a flawed outlook. No different if you only used +/- to determine a players worth. And no, they don't say that Smith is better than Lidstrom, that's just ridiculous. Like any single stat alone doesn't tell the whole story, this is no different. No one would suggest that Smith was better last season than Lidstrom was in 2010-11 (when he won his 7th Norris Trophy), based on there +2, -2 ratings, would they? So why would anyone suggest Smith is better than Lidstrom based on corsi numbers? That argument makes zero sense...

These charts aren't ridiculous. Of course they aren't the be-all, end-all, and shouldn't be the only thing used to evaluate players, but they are a very important tool. Just like you shouldn't just use point totals as an indicator of a players worth, or the eye-test, you shouldn't just use these HERO charts or any other single variation of data. All of these advanced analytics are very new to a lot of people, and if you don't understand them, they can be pretty intimidating at first. I don't think it's a big deal if you don't understand them, but it is a problem if you flat out refuse to understand them. And I know for a fact there are some on here that will do whatever they can to avoid this "nonsense". Unfortunately for them, this nonsense is growing more and more, and soon enough you'll have to adapt with it. To me, it's really no different than when shots on goal started being tracked, or hits, or blocked shots. It's just a new way of tracking stats... By the way, this isn't meant directly against you, nyquististhefuture, just at anyone that may not like these charts and advanced stats...

kickazz, absolutely not, and I've never suggested that Smith is anything remotely close to the best defenseman to ever play the game....... People somehow get confused by me talking up Smith's game as if I think he's an elite defenseman, when in fact I just think he is a solid top 4. The reason I pull stats is to provide information to those that suggest "Smith sucks", not to those that think he is a solid and important part to this team... Smith should average around 16:00 even strength per game and a 1-2:00 on each of the special team units in my opinion. I'm not even saying he should play above 20:00 per game, let alone anything close to 28:00..... WingedWheel, you can argue all you want, there is no way that the organization sees either of the other guys (Hicketts / Saarijarvi) as a more valuable piece than Smith today or the future...

Great list... Drew Miller, Luke Glendening and Joakim Andersson all make the top 15... ... but they can all block shots with the best of them...

I'm sick of people constantly saying how Smith (or whoever) gets "sheltered minutes". Sure a coach may try to get an offensive defenseman out against lesser competition, but that only works at home when you have the last change. What happens in the other 41 games on the road when you don't have last change? The opposing coach is trying to get all of his offensive weapons out against the same player that his coach is trying to "protect"... Bottom line, every players opponents as well as teammates overall skill level balances out over the course of a season... Smith seen more 5on5 play against JT Brown than any other player in the league last season... Not exactly an offensive dynamo. However, guess who's number's 8 and 9 on that list? Bobby Ryan and Steven Stamkos, at nearly 18 minutes against both... Are you saying that Blashill is trying to match Smith up against these two guys? Of course not. That's the strategy of the opposing coach...

Yes, because when I speak of liking or disliking a hockey player, I'm talking about them as people outside of the game... No, I'm not related to Brendan, and unfortunately I've never had the pleasure of meeting the guy. I'm not basing my opinion on him, on whether or not he is a "nice guy" though... My opinion is based purely on whether or not he is a good hockey player, and despite what many "haters" think, he is definitely that. "Facts are facts"? This is the second time you brought up Smith's "injury history"... Please tell me when he's been injured? I remember a few years ago he missed some time with a shoulder injury, other than that, he is a very durable player that rarely ever gets injured... As I've said before, Smith provides a ton of offense, just that those numbers have yet to translate into point totals. I think it has a huge deal to do with the lack of points from individual players as a whole than anything else. He leads our defense in corsi% and scoring chances created (passes that set up shots on goal), as well as a ton of other advanced stats... He is a very important player to this team, and to suggest that two unproven prospects that may never play an NHL game, are more valuable to the organization is ridiculous...

No, they're not even close to being "more valuable" to this team. The likelihood of either Hicketts or Saarijarvi ever panning out to be anything more than depth / minor league players in this organization is slim. I could really care less what you and several other Smith haters have to say about him as a player, but for a player that controls the play as much as he does, and is easily a top 4, he is very valuable to any team, regardless of his point totals. Certainly more so than two unproven prospects, that may or may not ever make the NHL... The only thing I will agree with is that "GM's aren't lining up to trade for his services"... That doesn't in any way mean he doesn't hold value though, and in a trade a lot of GM's would be interested in Smith.

I agree with Dabura that Jurco / Pulkkinen are far superior than Miller / Ott, even in a 4th line role. I would much rather have players on the ice that I'm hoping will score, rather than players that I'm hoping won't get scored on... These "defensive players" are good at one thing, and that's providing defense, aka chasing the other team around the defensive zone and blocking a scattered shot... Sure, they're decent penalty killers, but there are so many other options on the team that are just as good or better in that role. I'm not a huge Pulkkinen fan by any stretch, but he isn't the defensive liability that some make him out to be. His giveaway / takeaway ratio is even, and ranks around the middle on the team. His advanced stats on the other hand, are close to the tops on the team in just about every category. His corsi numbers are incredible. I get that it was a small sample size and he may have been up against weaker competition, but even so, I think it's hard to say that he's any sort of turnover machine by those stats... Mantha will be fine. I don't think my expectations have tapered near as much as some and I still expect him to be a very good top 6 winger that will pot 25+ goals a season.

I think we'll see a 1A / 1B between Larkin and Nielsen and I'm quite okay with that.

Yeah, Hicketts and Saarijarvi are far better than Smith...

Holland isn't going to trade Tatar for nothing, but if he traded him for an upgrade on the back end, I'm sure most would be happy with that move. If he traded Mantha for Shattenkirk, and Shattenkirk walked after a year and Mantha scored 25-30 goals with the Blues, then I think you'd hear a lot more backlash...

I'm not sure if it will be Nyquist or Tatar or worst case Athanasiou or Mantha traded, but I definitely see some sort of trade in the near future to bring in a top 4 (hopefully top 2) defenseman. There's no way we should go into the season with 16 forwards (18 if you're including Athanasiou and Mantha) without shedding a player or two. Sure, Holland could send Athanasiou and Mantha down to play another season in Grand Rapids, and he could waive Frk and Callahan, assuming they'd clear, and he could once again pencil Jurco and Pulkkinen in as the 13th / 14th forwards, but that would be terrible asset management. A trade needs to happen to alleviate the log jam. If Holland signed all these players just so he could play them over the kids, I will be very disappointed. I would much rather have seen Pulkkinen / Jurco / Frk given an opportunity over Vanek, and I would much rather Callahan / Bertuzzi given the opportunity over Miller / Ott... We'll have to see how it all plays out over the next few months...

What does trading Tatar have to do with the "Holland apologists"?...

I agree, and I wasn't exactly thrilled with the Vanek signing either. I think it's a good value signing, but unnecessary, unless there is actually a trade in the works... I don't really look at it as him taking a spot from Athanasiou / Mantha, but rather Pulkkinen / Jurco / Frk. The former are top 6 forwards while the latter, like Vanek, are / should be slotted in 3rd line right wing. I'd like to see a trade before training camp to alleviate some of the log jam up front. If we can trade Nyquist / Tatar along with Pulkkinen in a package for a top pair defenseman, while freeing up a spot in the top 6 for Athanasiou / Mantha as well as a spot in the bottom 6 for Vanek / Frk, it all works out... I actually like the Ott signing more than I do the Miller signing, but neither were needed. I can see Miller playing every game he's healthy though, and Ott used sparingly...

I'd be shocked if it weren't Abdelkader. Like has been metioned Abby will get this one, DeKeyser after Kronwall and Larkin will get the C after Zetterberg.

Late to the party, as I was out of town all weekend, but overall I think it was a very good free agent frenzy for the Wings. The number one thing we needed going into Friday was a top 6 center, and Nielsen seems to be a very good addition. The cap hit is fair, just a year or two longer than I would have liked. Overall solid signing. I liked the Vanek signing as well. Seems like a low risk, high reward signing that has the potential to work out for us, if not, no big deal. The Ott signing was basically the same way I felt about the Miller signing a few days ago. Completely unnecessary, but can't complain about minimal cap, depth signing. Unlike most here, I was ecstatic to see Helm back. It was about $0.85M higher than I would have liked, but I'm okay with it. One of the most under-rated / under appreciated players on the team. With these signings, it looks like Holland has set himself up to trade some forwards for help on the back end. If there's any way we can land Trouba, I think we will be in great shape going in to next season...

Yes, he definitely is, but the point of landing a player like Trouba would be to have someone up with DeKeyser on the top pair... Our starting point in any such trade would have to be Nyquist / Tatar or Mantha / Svechnikov, and add in a defensive prospect Marchenko / Ouellet plus a high pick...

Frank, Trouba would cost a lot but definitely not that much... Larkin alone has as much value in any trade as Trouba. Then add DeKeyser who is a 2/3 defenseman on any team, and a first round pick? No way...

I wouldn't mind Fowler, but he wouldn't be my first choice. Kenny needs to find a way to pry Trouba out of Winnipeg... I also agree that it's fine to overpay to the cap as long as we're not overpaying on term. 2-3 year deals for any of these guys would be ideal.

It would not cost Nyquist and Tatar plus for Duchene... I think Nyquist, Ouellet and a first round pick is in the ball park. But yeah, like kliq said, Nyquist, Tatar, Mantha, Athanasiou, Svechnikov all have pretty high value, and we have a bunch of other guys with decent value as well. A trade bringing in a key piece can be made, I'm just not sure if Holland can / will pull one off...

I completely disagree... We have plenty attractive pieces. It would obviously be a package deal, but it could be done. Whether or not we want to use those assets on a number one center or number one defenseman is the question...