krsmith17

Jesusberg, no you're right, they're not the same situation. In one case, we gave up a pretty solid prospect at a position that we were really deep at, and he had no chance at cracking the lineup any time soon, and in the other, we'd be giving up a solid young defenseman, who is starting to round out his game and come into his own. Why would you give up on that for potentially just a few months of service from another player? Especially after seeing what happened in the Legwand situation... Also, Holland can do whatever he wants to try to get Green to stay in Detroit past this season, but chances are Green would test the open market, and if there is a better offer elsewhere, which there likely would be, nothing's stopping him from signing anywhere else... What makes you think Babcock is high on Green? I would think Green is the polar opposite of a player Babcock would be high on. As a matter of fact, the one reason I'm not sure if Green would be a great trade for us, aside from the cost, is that I think he would end up in Babcock's doghouse within weeks...

I don't see why one would think this guy would get traded... I'd say there is about a 0.01% chance he gets traded. Why would Holland trade away the player with two of the main attributes he's been looking for in a player in the past decade... Right-handed / Sniper. The kid is here to stay, he will be fine, he will work out the kinks in his game down in Grand Rapids, and he will come back hungrier, stronger, and a much better all around player...

I would consider trading Smith in a package for Green, if and only if we knew he would resign. There is no way I give up Smith plus the assets it would take to get Green here for just a few short months. Especially considering I don't think we're that close to being a "favorite" to win the Cup this year. I do believe we're a contender but I don't think Green puts us over the top into the "favorites" conversation... For the same reason, I wouldn't trade away any major assets for the number one defenseman I'd like to have that will be available, Cody Franson. Not worth it if they're going to walk in the summer, and they both probably would want to test the open market, considering they will be on 20+ teams wishlist. I'd also like to have Wisniewski, and to a lesser extent, Bogosian, Wideman or Byfuglien... Like I've said before, Smith is on my untouchable list, not because there isn't a player in the league that I would trade him for, because there obviously are many, but because there is no player that Holland is likely to get in a trade that I would give up Smith for... Anyway, Smith isn't going anywhere. I'm more confident in Smith being a career Red Wing than getting traded before this years deadline. Simply not going to happen...

You honestly don't think that a package of Kindl, Ouellet, Nastasiuk and a mid to high draft pick could land us a decent defenseman? I do. And that's the route I'd prefer to go rather than giving up Smith. And honestly, Zidlicky would be a good option for us at the deadline and he wouldn't cost much at all, maybe a draft pick or two or a mid level prospect and a pick... Yes, I definitely do see Babcock using Smith in a top 4 role in the future. He doesn't always trust his game in certain situations right now, but with growth, he will earn the coaches trust. And no, I don't see anything practical in giving up on Smith at this stage of his career / where the Wings are as a team right now. The only way I trade a player like Smith is if it's for a significant upgrade, and without giving up other assets such as a Mantha or Larkin, I don't see that happening. If you're trading Smith now, you're trading low, and his stock is going to continue to go up. Just do me a favor and put Smith in a trade scenario that you would make... It's a move that must make the team better. No lateral moves, without giving up the farm, and without raping another team, because we all know that isn't going to happen. At the deadline buyers almost always overpay. I'm quite okay with standing pat and continuing the development of our team / the kids.

We need to lose 2 or 3 of Ericsson, Quincey, Smith and Kindl?? Seriously? Why? To make room for the kids? I'm going to say this again, no matter how high some of us are on the kids coming up from Grand Rapids (Ouellet, Sproul, Jensen, Marchenko) none are an upgrade over what we have, aside from Kindl. So why would replace Smith with one of them? I want to see the kids up as much as the next guy, but not at the expense of a better player. The only player I would replace with one of the kids is Kindl. As it stands right now, he is the only player in our top 6 that can be upgraded internally. If we're looking to make a trade, why not just package Kindl, one of our "awesome" defense prospects, another prospect and a pick for a top 4 right handed defenseman? That would make our back end significantly better, without losing a player like Smith. Petry is not an upgrade over Smith, so why would you make such a lateral move? Just for the sake of making a trade?... No thanks!

That right there sums it up perfectly. Fans in general tend to hold on to the bad moments for way too long and forget the good ones. A player can have a game where he makes an amazing play to set up a goal, and then he makes an untimely turnover... Which one do most fans remember? Add on top of that, a player that has already been labeled, it's not easy to drop that label...

Lol f*** off number9... This was a serious debate until you showed up

The very thing you originally responded to, I said that Smith is currently better than Ouellet. I did not say Smith was better than Quincey. I said that the DeKeyser / Smith pair would be better than the DeKeyser / Quincey pair. Despite me having the OPINION that Smith is better than Quincey, I just think that was an amazing pairing when they were together earlier this season. So it has more to do with chemistry and balance than individual ability. I know, DeKeyser and Quincey have chemistry now too but I don't think it compares to how well DeKeyser and Smith meshed when they were put together at the beginning of the season. Again, this is all my... opinion...

Yup, and almost every single one of those stats have to do with two different things in my OPINION... Quincey has a better, more reliable defense partner. And Quincey has nearly triple the amount of games played (experience)... Also, this isn't even necessarily about who is the better player. Like I said right from the beginning, the whole point of this conversation was, who is the better fit on the second pairing with DeKeyser (to get our offense going and make our 3 pairings more balanced). And also who is going to be better in the future, the reason I'm so adamant about not trading Smith. Also, funny how you didn't respond to the Yandle vs Streit comparison. Probably because assessing a player, which is what we are doing with Smith is absolutely an opinion...

I never once represented Smith as having more points and trying to pass it off as an opinion... I never stated anything as opinion that can be proven by stats. I am saying that Smith is a better defenseman, and that IS an opinion and it is NOT wrong. Get the f*** over yourself Kip. You're not always right... Who's better in your opinion? Mark Streit or Keith Yandle? I think everyone would agree that Yandle is better, which is an opinion, but stats say that Streit is better... What now?... Based on the definition I gave you earlier, an opinion CANNOT be wrong. Quincey gets more ice time with a better defense partner, so that automatically means Quincey is a better player?... Yeah, okay...

An opinion cannot be wrong, hence it being an "opinion"... An estimation of the quality of worth of someone or something not necessarily based on fact... You can throw as many stats at me as you want, I'm going by the product I see on the ice. Smith is the better option for the second pairing, while Quincey would be a great shut-down third pairing guy. Yup, I said Quincey surged ahead of Smith in ALL those areas in just one week... It was very clear in what I said that I was specifically talking about points, as in the one extra goal he got, and the four extra assists... Is it really that impossible for you to fathom that Smith could have potentially got that plus some if he were paired with DeKeyser for the past month rather than babysitting a rookie?... Give me a break...

Yup, all of that is true, as recent as this week... He has gone on a huge run, just like any of our defenders can next week, including Smith... If Smith had been paired with DeKeyser on the second pair for the past month, I'm very confident he would have more than 5 extra points... I'm one of the very few that has never constantly bitched about Quincey, but Smith is better than Quincey in MY OPINION, and Quincey (every single defenseman in the league) is better than Smith in YOUR OPINION... That's completely fine with me, as long as you're not the one calling the shots. Smith is here to stay.

Smith is better than Ouellet now, and I believe Smith will be better than Ouellet in the future. I'm not, nor have I ever been as high on Ouellet as most fans. I don't think he's close to our top defense prospect. I've watched a ton of Griffins games over the past few years and Ouellet has never done anything to impress. I'll admit that his hockey IQ seems to be high, and he does everything above average, but nothing he does, points to him being better than a bottom pairing defenseman at the NHL level. I think Smith is a second pairing defenseman now and he has the potential to be a really good one in a year or two. I think Sproul is the only other defense prospect that we have (other than Backman, and he's gone back to Sweden...) that has a legit shot to be a top 3/4 defenseman. As good as the DeKeyser / Quincey pairing has been does anyone actually think that it is better than the DeKeyser / Smith pairing? I sure don't, but we're all entitled to our own opinion...

I disagree. I don't think Kronwall is the type of defenseman that is capable in making his partner that much better. There are very few in the league that can, some include Sutter, Weber, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Chara (as much as it pains me to say it), Kronwall is not in the group in my opinion... Smith is expendable because we have other young guys coming up? That's ridiculous. Guess what? Whether one wants to admit it or not, Smith is further along in his development and is currently better than our most NHL ready defenseman, Ouellet. If you think otherwise, remember how good most players are when they first enter the league before they finally come back down to earth, including Smith. Brendan entered the league getting 2 assists in his first 3 games, a goal and 2 assists in his first 5 games, a goal and 4 assists in his first 8 games... Ouellet currently has a goal and an assist in his first 22 games... The learning curve for NHL defensemen is extremely steep, and you want to trade away a guy that is finally starting to get it, and start all over again with a rookie? Like I keep saying, I'm glad Holland is smarter than that... People always think that the next guy coming up is going to be better, well no he's not, not for a few years at least, unless he's a generational talent, which we don't have... Smith hasn't quite met expectations since he entered the league but he is improving game by game, and that's all you can really ask. He will get there. His game from a year ago, is night and day from what it is now, and it will be again this time next year. Anyway, Smith isn't going anywhere so I'm done with this...

You're not seriously comparing Lidstrom to Kronwall are you? While Lidstrom was capable in making Ian White look like an actual NHL defenseman, Kronwall would not, he would look more like, well... Ian White, a bum... Don't get me wrong, I like Kronwall and he is a pretty damn good defenseman, but not even in the same league as Lidstrom, not many are. I don't believe there are many defenseman in the league today that can make their partner look that much better, and certainly not Kronwall or DeKeyser. Smith looks better with those two because he plays a different game, he feels more comfortable in that role, which is exactly why I believe he would benefit from power-play time. Exactly "we were all hopeful"... Smith isn't progressing quite as fast as people would have liked, so quick, trade him... Crazy... The potential is there, and no one can deny that, and that is exactly why he won't be going anywhere.

I agree with all of that, but also, if Petry were to come to Detroit, chances are he would be on our second, if not our third pairing, while still getting his power-play time. Maybe his point totals decrease with the decreased ice time, or maybe they increase with the better power-play... Who knows right? But to trade a 25 year old Smith plus other assets for Petry would be a HUGE mistake in my opinion. I'm just thankful Holland doesn't have the quick trigger finger that most on here have. And I'm confident that Smith isn't going anywhere unless it's for a significant upgrade.

Definitely not more deserving of being paired with Kronwall than Ericsson... Nope. Ericsson has been fantastic this season. The bottom line is, Smith has looked great at two specific time periods so far in his young career, when he was paired with Kronwall last season, and when he was paired with DeKeyser earlier this season. What does that tell you? Nothing? Okay... Also, with Smith's very limited power-play time in the past year and a half, he has been able to produce. He makes things happen when he's out there on the power-play. Believe it or not, he actually produces more than any of our defensemen on the power-play, when taking into account minutes played. I know it's a small sample size at just 12 minutes this season, but that's exactly why he needs more of an opportunity...

Wow people are really reaching for this Smith is useless bulls***... First of all Brendan Smith is just as good as Jeff Petry right now, and he has a lot higher ceiling... and you're suggesting trading Smith AND a mid level prospect AND a pick for Petry? Are you kidding me? The blind hate on Smith is getting beyond ridiculous... Petry will go for a couple picks and you want to throw all that in for him?... Petry is getting top line minutes in Edmonton, while Smith is getting third line minutes in Detroit, and yet he still isn't producing a significant amount more than Smith. Petry is producing at a 0.22% points per game pace, while Smith is producing at a 0.17% points per game pace. Not a huge difference for a player making over double the salary... Petry has also played an additional 36 minutes more on the power-play than Smith has this season. With those kinds of minutes on the man advantage, you would think he would be producing a LOT more, he is not at all. Let's have a look at their career points shall we? Believe it or not, Smith is actually producing at a slightly higher clip than Petry... Smith has 41 points in 160 games (0.256%) while Petry has 69 points in 281 games (0.245%). You blame Smith for being a turnover machine, but Petry has over double the number of giveaways as Smith but he also has twice as many takeaways... Petry may be a little better defensively, hitting more and blocking more shots, but that stat is almost as skewed as the +/- stat, which Smith is obviously superior, playing for a better team, Smith is even and Petry is a -21. The only upside Petry has over Smith in my opinion, is that he is a right handed shot. Is that reason enough to make the trade? Hell no!

What are you talking about joesuff? Who said anything about Smith being our second best defenseman??? No one... Did you even watch the game? Seriously?... Smith played one of his better games Sunday night, playing more minutes than anyone not named Kronwall, and he only played 12 seconds less than him... People cannot be serious about Ericsson playing better than Smith right now, Ericsson has been a giveaway machine, and Smith has been quite steady. Like Echolalia pointed out, he has the best takeaway/giveaway ratio of any of our defense, so this giveaway thing that people always go to, is completely false. Was he a year ago? Absolutely but it's time he shakes that moniker. Yup, he sure is "stacking up minuses", at a horrendous even +/- rating... People just spew s*** to "try" to make their point, not thinking that anyone else actually watch the games and know better... I guess people are just sour because Smith was supposed to put up huge points, just because he did prior to the NHL. Well guess what? It happens. The number of players, both defense and forwards, that put up huge numbers in junior and the American League, and then can't get it done at the NHL level, is astounding. Most players that hit the brick wall in point production, can't adjust their game and eventually fade out and end up as career AHLers or go over seas, Smith is adjusting quite well. He has been rounding out his game, changing from a pure offensive minded defenseman to a decent two-way defender. The offense will come, just be patient. Defense is by far the most difficult position to play at the NHL level, and for a player trying to change his style of play on the fly, it's definitely not easy. You put Brendan Smith in any other organization and I guarantee he would be a 30+ point producer. Babcock has no doubt, stunted his offensive production but I think in the end, he will be a better player because of it. Smith is not a problem here, he is and will be just fine. We have bigger things to worry about than Brendan Smith....

Kip, it fits your argument this time does it? You're really going to say that Babcock always gives his players appropriate ice time? He never demotes players for absolutely no explainable reason? Seriously? What about Weiss? Smith has proved time and time again that he deserves more minutes, he deserves to be on the second line, he deserves to be on the second power-play unit. But he is not. Why? Because... Mike Babcock... Yes, all players should produce more when playing with better players and in situations to their strengths, and Smith has produced in these situations, but yet, he's still not getting permanent duty. And yes, when Kronwall screws up, most of the time it does go unnoticed by fans, or at least not endlessly bitched about, whereas if Smith screws up, you never hear the end of it. I'm not blind to Smith's screw ups. I see when he screws up, but I see a lot more good that he's doing out there than bad, and that scale is being tipped more and more each and every game. He is improving immensely whether you want to see it or not...

There is no specific number of games that every individual should get. And yes, I agree that a player drafted later should get more time to develop, but Ericsson is long past the development process, and he has been much worse than Smith the first half of this season, but yet, for some unexplained reason, he gets a pass but Smith does not. Smith is still improving, and I see improvements in his game all the time. Just because you refuse to see it, doesn't mean it's not happening... Brendan Smith today is night and day compared to Brendan Smith one year ago. Another thing, Smith isn't exactly getting the minutes or the linemates he needs to put up huge points. He looked great with both Kronwall and DeKeyser and I think if he were ever put back with DeKeyser on the second pair, we'd see a huge difference in his point totals. Do you think it's any coincidence that Quincey is starting to produce being paired with DeKeyser? I sure don't... Smith is now paired with Ouellet, and no matter how great LGW see Xavier, he is still just a rookie. I'm sure Smith plays a lot more tentative with Ouellet than he would with DeKeyser. Either way, he is playing bottom pairing and he is playing quite good in my opinion. Give him a better partner and more minutes and he will play better. X 10 Echolalia!!!

So, the reason you say he's "garbage" now is because he's developing slower than you would have liked? Because he was a stud in college and in the American League? Because he was a first round draft pick? So what? Look at all the first round draft picks in the past 7-10 years, from around 20-30 overall that have been complete busts. Smith isn't developing that slow at all in my opinion. Sure, there are guys such as John Carlson that are complete studs, but Smith is a lot better than the majority of late first rounders. Kindl was a higher draft pick, has played nearly 100 more games than Smith and is still around, not that he should be... Because Ericsson was the last guy picked in his draft year, he should get a pass? Smith will be fine, and lucky for us, he's not going anywhere...

I couldn't agree more Playmaker. +10 Also, in regards to the Mrazek vs Howard debate... Before last night I wanted to sign Mrazek to a mega deal and trade Howard, but after last nights performance, I think we should probably trade or maybe even waive Mrazek. We probably wouldn't get much in return after last nights performance anyway. I mean 3 goals allowed on 7 shots? That's aaaawful. He will never ever get it done at the NHL level, unless of course he has a bounce back game next game. Then, we should probably trade Howard. I mean, no team wants to have two capable goaltenders at one time, that would be what they call a "goalie controversy", bad news... I'm not sure, am I doing this right?... f***in LGW...

He was a Leafs fan growing up because his father and his fathers parents were all from the Toronto area, and die-hard Leafs fans. Poor kid didn't stand a chance... As for being a Crosby fan, believe it or not, there are millions of young kids that grow up idolizing Sidney, after all, he is the best player in the league today. Which is pretty much the same reason I grew up idolizing Yzerman, and the reason I've been a Wings fan ever since... So no, he didn't start rooting for the Leafs or Crosby because "no one else did" or "just to piss his friends off", unfortunately for him, he was born into it... But lucky for him, he was drafted by the Red Wings. He'll now get to see what it's like to cheer for a real team, and eventually get the opportunity to play for them... That's Dylan in the middle at the Winter Classic last New Years in Ann Arbor with his brother and cousin.

I love this kid, but I'm not sure how well he "represents the state of Michigan"... Despite growing up in Waterford Michigan, he was a Leafs fan, and his favorite player was Sidney Crosby... I guess all that changed last June...