krsmith17

Okay, maybe "I was wrong" on my word choice there... Maybe "defensive specialist" isn't the best way to describe it. More like I said in my last post "offensive black hole", little to no offensive game. Those players, in my opinion, are becoming less and less common. The skill has evolved / is continuing to evolve. Therefore, that type of player is no longer needed. I see very little offensive upside in Ehn's game. Maybe he gets there, but I doubt it. How about, instead of cherry picking one thing I say (like you ALWAYS do), why don't you discuss the actual topic at hand... What do you think of Ehn? Do you think he's above replacement level? Do you think he has offensive upside?

Maybe slight exaggeration, but definitely held on a couple years too long in my opinion. I disagree. I see Glendening as one of the better 4th line centers in the league. I see Ehn as a borderline NHL player. You obviously disagree, but to me, that's a significant gap. Maybe. I don't see it though... Like I said, *most* NHL players. More so referring to "good" NHL players. I'd put Erne slightly ahead of Ehn in overall skill level, but he's still a pretty bad player, relatively speaking. How the f*** is that "my logic"? I've never said anything of the such... We have plenty of players capable of killing penalties. Glendening and Helm are our top two PK guys. Filppula and Nielsen are decent. If Abdelkader is dressing, he should be on the PK. Veleno and Rasmussen could be options coming in the next couple years. You could acquire another, better version of Ehn via trade or free agency... There are options... I don't care about Perlini. Again, I'd take him over Ehn, but it's whatever to me. Also, until Ehn proves he can be as good of a shutdown guy as Glendening, and puts up 20+ points in a season, stop lumping them together. As of now, they're not close to the same calibre player. Except for the fact that I keep saying that Glendening is really good, and Ehn is not... What the f*** are you talking about? Hence why I said, we don't know which path Ehn is going to take... Right now, he's being utilized on the 4th line of the worst team in the league. Andersson was also once utilized on the 4th line. Ehn may fade out the same way Andersson did (what I think will happen), or he may end up a stud, shutdown 4th line center like Glendening (what you think will happen), or he may end up somewhere in between (probably most likely)... It can. I just don't buy it. The same way you don't buy it for Larkin... I'm not arguing against defensively responsible players. I'm arguing against players that get hemmed in their own zone for 70% of their shift, because they have little to no skill (relatively speaking), and can't move the puck up ice. People then talk these players up as if they're "defensive specialists", when they're just bad NHL players. I am 100% saying that we need the Luke Glendening's and Darren Helm's of the hockey world. I don't see Ehn developing into that calibre player. We'll see... This simply isn't true. The cheap players you're referring to are called ELC's. You don't need a bunch of players on your team making near league minimum into their mid 20's. The only reason you keep those players around is for 13th/14th forward / 7th defenseman... But again, I'm not arguing against defensively responsible players. I'm arguing against offensive blackholes... The Leafs and Canes (among other teams) are trying to roll 4 "scoring lines". That doesn't mean there are no defensively responsible players on those teams. But there aren't many bad ones. There are good defensive players on every team. No one is arguing that. We have some bad players on our team. In my opinion, Ehn is one of those. If Ehn were waived at any point next season, he would clear waivers. Why? Because he's replacement level. That was 8 years ago. Also, all members of the Grind Line were quality players that could chip in offensively, while playing sound defense. Those are players you want on your 4th line. Draper, Maltby / Glendening, Helm. Not Ehn. Again, maybe he develops into that type of player, but I don't see it. I remember having similar conversations a few years ago about Marchenko. I see Ehn taking a similar route back to Europe... Great point! Hartigan f***ing sucked. Bad players play in the NHL all the time. They seldom last though...

It's cute how people are trying to turn me not being a fan of Ehn into me not liking any depth players... That's not the case at all. Defensive "specialists" are becoming less and less common in the NHL, just like goons have. Teams do have 12+ offensive forwards to roll 4 "scoring" lines. Most teams' (old school coaches) are just reluctant to do it. Some of the best penalty killers in the league are offensively gifted forwards. The belief that penalty killers need to be pure defensive minded, zero offense, is an oldschool mentality. Bergeron, Giroux, and Couturier have been among the leagues best penalty killers for some time now. Zibanejad and Aho are also great penalty killers, and threat every time they're out there. The need for Christoffer Ehn's in an NHL lineup is diminishing, unless he can prove to be capable in other areas of the game...

Never said worthless. "real good potential"... lol you gotta be trolling... Because other players concentrate on generating offense. And yes, most can learn how to play defense... They're the same age (Perlini is 3 weeks younger), Perlini has 76 points, while Ehn has a whopping 14... Yeah, about just as good... You just keep trying to put words in my mouth, when I say the exact opposite... I know. Everyone sux... No, I'm talking about 4th liners in general, since we don't know which path Ehn is going to take. You think he's closer to a Luke Glendening... I think he's closer to a Joakim Andersson... *cringes* You're probably right, which is very sad...

Nah, I don't buy that. Svechnikov is currently below Ehn on the depth chart. That doesn't mean he'll stay below him. Ehn just got to the show first, because he can be trusted defensively. That doesn't make him a better player though. No. I like Glendening. I don't like Ehn. Try to keep up. Seriously though, Glendening is better than Ehn at just about every facet of the game; offensively, defensively, faceoffs, penalty killing, etc... Penalty killers are important, but their importance is massively overvalued by some. Just about any NHL quality player can learn how to defend and kill penalties. I'm a big proponent of having skilled players kill penalties. Enough of these utility guys that can defend, but do nothing else notably well. Not 3-6 Brendan Perlini's, no. I don't give a f*** about Perlini. But 3-6 players that play well in all three zones, and can chip in offensively, yes. I would take Perlini over Ehn though, but I'm sure that's clear by now... Emmerton and Andersson brought as much value to the team as Ehn... and that's zero... Not small role players in general. Our small role players. Because they suck. I don't understand this perpetual need you have to punch down and s*** on our only good players... Meh. Our top six needs work as well, but we have 3-4 capable top six forwards, 2-3 of which you want to trade... and you're coming at me for labeling a bottom six player as replacement level... Yeah, okay bud... Management and coaches make mistakes all the f***ing time... Afterall, they are human... Do I think I know better than them? Nope. But I'm sure there are some decisions any one of us would make that would be better for the organization. Just as I'm sure there are a LOT more that would be disastrous for the organization... You're going to use that one on a defensive forward without an offensive bone in his body? Sure... Sure. And eventually the decision to scratch Ehn for x, y, or z player will be made. Do you know what percentage of 4th line players play more than 5 seasons in the NHL? Let alone for the same team? Hint: it's low... A) I think your wrong on your assessment of Larkin and Zadina. B) They're not going anywhere. LOL at Ehn finishing the season 10 points behind Zadina...

When people talk about potential, it's usually on players that were big point producers in lower leagues, but haven't yet reached said potential in the NHL. That's not really the case with Ehn though. He's never really been a big point producer. He's a warm body on the worst team in the NHL. If he were waived, I highly doubt a single team would claim him. Ehn's ceiling is what? 15 points? There are countless players available in free agency, college, Europe, and in every single farm system (including ours), that can put up as good, or better production, while not giving up any more on the defensive side. It appears we may see Kadeykin come over from Russia next season. I'm not saying he will be Ehn's replacement, but maybe... Ehn is very replaceable (that's not saying he MUST be replaced ASAP...), and I stand by that. Agree to disagree...

So why answer a question I didn't ask? The question was, which is more likely? It was more so directed at CRL though, because he's the one that seems to believe that a 24 year old Ehn has the potential to grow into a bigger role, but Larkin and Zadina are what they are, at 23 and 20 respectively... Where are you getting my "urgency" to replace Ehn? I've said several times that there is no rush, but I do think it's inevitable. I don't care if we re-sign him or not. I personally wouldn't, but if we do, it's not a big deal. So we're in agreement then? Ehn is a dime a dozen player... aka replacement level...

The "truth"? And what is that? Is he or is he not an easily replaceable player? A dime a dozen... There are multiple players available as good or better than Ehn every single year in free agency. That's not what I asked... And what makes you so sure? None are crazy unrealistic. Larkin hit 73 points last season (in 76 games). He can definitely hit 75 next season, if a lot of things go right. Zadina was on a 44 point pace last season (15 points in 28 games). He will be up for the full season next season, and again, if a lot of things go right, 50 isn't out of the realm of possibility. Ehn is the oldest of the three, and has never come close to 15 points. His career average is 0.114 points per game, which is 9 points over 82 games. He's the only one of the three that is not under contract (yet), and isn't guaranteed a spot in the top 12. I'll say most likely, Larkin, then Zadina, then Ehn... EDIT: And if "next season" is the sticking point for you, because we're going to be BAD again... What do you think is more / less likely? Ehn averages 15ish points per season over the next 10 seasons, Zadina averages 50ish points per season over the next 10 seasons, or Larkin averages 75ish points per season over the next 10 seasons? (all with the Wings of course)... My order stays the same, Larkin, Zadina, Ehn. And Zadina is a lot closer to Larkin, then Ehn is to Zadina...

Yeah, they probably are, but... ... they haven't really been given much of an opportunity. Ehn has been given an opportunity, and has already proven that he's "replacement level"... Grow into what? A defensive specialist? No thanks... Ehn is "good" defensively, but it doesn't make up for his offensive shortcomings. I'll take a Perlini with offensive potential, over an Ehn, with zero offensive potential any day. Emmerton and Andersson both made the big club at around the same age (difference of a few months). Both were more productive, and have (and maybe will) play more games in a Red Wings Wings jersey than Ehn. Drew Miller sucked, despite his "amazing penalty killing"... I'm not saying we have to replace Ehn next season, but most of our bottom six needs to be upgraded in the next couple seasons if we're going to turn things around, and that includes Ehn. THAT'S what I mean by "replacement level"... About 5 years too long, if you ask me... NO! I appreciate plenty of bottom six forwards. Ehn just isn't one of them. I do appreciate Ehn's work ethic, but the skill just isn't there. I've never said "worthless" or "useless"... So we agree then? Ehn is replacement level, and should be replaced in the next couple seasons... Chips in 15-20 points a season? You do realize his career high (albeit in two 3/4 seasons) is 9. He hasn't even amassed 15 points in 114 games... I disagree here as well. I'm okay with a revolving door on that 12th/13th forward spot. I'd rather give up on the Ehn experiment now, and try Turgeon next season. If he sucks too, try Pearson the next season. If he sucks too, try Soderblom the next season. If he sucks too... you get the point... I do find it funny though, that you will defend Ehn because of his age and "potential", but you're ready to give up on Larkin and Zadina, who are both younger / much younger, with MUCH higher potential... What do you think is more / less likely? Ehn hits 15+ points next season, Zadina hits 50+ points next season, or Larkin hits 75+ points next season? (all with the Wings of course)...

If anything he's over appreciated by some here. He's a replacement level player. Nothing more, nothing less.

Not what I said... The 3+ pieces is what I, as a fan would want in such a trade. If Yzerman truly wanted to trade down though, the price shouldn't be that high. If he has his mind made up on Stutzel as the best player in the draft, he could accept a return as low as the 2nd overall and a 2nd round pick...

If Yzerman truly wants to trade down because he feels Stutzel is the best player in the draft, whichever team is drafting 2nd (or 3rd) would absolutely, 100% give up an asset to make the trade. If Yzerman is the one making the call, the price shouldn't be that high. If the team with the 2nd (or 3rd) pick is the one making the call, that's when the price gets heavy... In saying that, if we were to win the lottery, I'd want Stutzel, along with another top 15 pick, and a top prospect. And that's only if Yzerman truly believes Stutzel will be the better player. I don't see it, but what the f*** do I know...

There's a reality where we could get a 1st and 3rd overall in the next two drafts. If we do, we should be set. That's best case scenario. If we don't, and we end up falling to 4th this year, and 7th next year, and whoever we draft ends up being average top six forwards / top four defensemen, we could be in trouble. That's worst case scenario. But THAT'S when you tear it down. Not now... EDIT: I responded to you Neo, but I'm sure you know this is directed at CRL and whoever else is in the burn it down camp. Not you...

Again, 100% agree. I know you're not saying that Larkin isn't a 1C, but I think he absolutely is. I don't see Larkin giving up that 1C role any time soon. We may need an upgrade at 2C, depending on how Veleno / Rasmussen pan out, but I also think we're solid there as well, with one of those two. If we end up falling back in the draft (most probable), and take Stutzel, I think we'll see Larkin - Stutzel - Veleno as our center depth going forward, and while none are McDavid or Matthews calibre, I think one (Larkin) or two (Stutzel) of them could be Toews / O'Rielly calibre. The former have a combined 0 Cups (albeit a lot younger). The latter have a combined 4 Cups as 1C's... Give Larkin a Kane or Tarasenko calibre winger, and he'll once again be considered a legit 1C... This. Apparently...

This makes no sense... Please explain... Nothing CRL is saying makes any sense...

Everyone has given you more substance than this topic deserves... But I'll ask again, what does your ideal trade(s) look like? You want to trade Larkin? For who? You're not getting a better player than Larkin in a trade. Trade him for picks? You're back to "hoping" that those picks turn into better players than the player you're trading. Not likely. You're saying we're not guaranteed superstar calibre players with a top 4 pick, in an extremely top heavy draft, but you think whatever we trade for our best player, will somehow be better...

Blah, blah, blah, blah, everyone in the entire organization sucks, except my boy Seider, blah, blah, blah...

We WILL be getting an elite talent in this year's draft. That's all but guaranteed. Everything doesn't need to work out perfectly, but with the way we're set up right now, we have the second best odds (if you include two of the Sens picks) at Lafreniere, but we'll be getting an elite player in the top four regardless. We have a lot of good, young talent. Most of which haven't come close to reaching their full potential yet. So yes, we will improve. That's inevitable with the season we just had. What does your ideal trades look like with Larkin, Mantha, Zadina, whoever else you want to trade off?

We will. Probably because they've been rebuilding forever, compared to our what? Three years? Of course they're in a better spot. What happens in two years time, if we end up with Lafreniere and a top 5 pick in 2021? We're likely once again, ahead of or close to where Edmonton are now. Do you even know what the Oilers got for Hall and Eberle? They were awful trades. Imagine that current team, with veterans like Hall and Eberle...

Yes, I understood... I was adding to your meme... Maybe I should have said: YuP. tRaDe LaRkIn. tRaDe MaNtHa. wE cOuLd UsE tHaT eXtRa $13M iN cAp SpAcE...

Yup. Trade Larkin. Trade Mantha. We could use that extra $13M in cap space...

We'll be adding elite players. Assuming that trading away our best young players is going to somehow improve our team, is dumb... That rarely ever works... Edmonton tanked hard for years. Where did that get them? Sure, they finally got a Draisaitl and McDavid, but they still haven't done anything notable (I do think they eventually will). Edmonton also traded away high-end young players (Hall / Eberle), and have what to show for it?

Nah. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I believe we have some really good young players on the team, and coming up through the system. I don't believe any of them are truly good enough (yet), to be considered "the guys" you build your team around. That doesn't mean you can't build a team with them. Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Zadina, Hronek, Seider are all really good young players. Add in Veleno, Rasmussen, Cholowski, etc. and we have some really nice pieces going forward. None of them are elite (yet), and probably never will be. That doesn't mean you blow it up though... We should get an elite (maybe franchise) type player in this year's draft, and maybe another one in next year's draft. You add two elite players to what we already have, and in a few years time, this team is a perennial playoff team. A lot still needs to go right, but I have faith that Yzerman, in time, can get us back into the playoffs and eventually a legit contender.

Completely 100% disagree with all of this...

Who was better? Stacy Roest or Kris Draper?