krsmith17

I know you're not serious, but as far as I know, everyone (except nyquististhefuture) loves Fabbri. No hate. No one talking about bust. Really good middle six winger. Great Nyquist replacement (ironically)...

Athanasiou for a 1st is also a pipedream, but let's say Yzerman does somehow pull it off... That pick ends up being in the 20's, and we trade that pick and our 2nd (32nd overall)... We have a better chance of winning the draft lottery than any of that happening though...

I'm okay with waiting a little longer on Blash too, but if one of Gallant or Laviolette were interested, you'd have to consider it. I think them being interested in a team like Detroit, could be weighed heavily on the upcoming draft. If we luck out with Lafreniere, I could see a lot of coaches being interested in coaching the Red Wings.

I want Yzerman to pull some strings and somehow acquire another top 10 pick...

I'm not saying Blashill should be fired, but if there are better options available (I think there could be), then Yzerman should at least be considering it...

The only other two goalies waived this season were Mike McKenna (36) and Chad Johnson (33). Why would I have any interest in either of them? If there were any other decent young goaltenders waived, I'd expect Yzerman to take a serious look at them as well. If Ottawa waived Marcus Hogberg tomorrow, we'd probably have a similar conversation about him...

I still think position may be influencing your opinion a bit too much, but whatever. No need of getting into that again... I just scoured the internet looking at draft rankings, and of the 10-12 I looked at, all but one had Raymond ahead of Drysdale. Some as many as 3 or 4 spots. I'm not saying that should influence your opinion, but it is something. From what I've seen / read at this point, I think Raymond is the better prospect with a much higher ceiling. In saying that, if we end up drafting Drysdale, I won't be disappointed, especially if he ends up a Hughes / Makar caliber defenseman. A lot of great choices in the 3-7 range. Hopefully we don't have to worry about that and we get to pick 1st or 2nd overall...

LOL I'm not even sure what we were arguing to be honest. I think there was some miscommunication from the beginning... We're basically arguing for a page and a half who should be ranked number 4... Who cares...

I'm not saying we should be predicting what Yzerman is going to do. I'm saying, you made it seem like if Yzerman drafted Raymond (winger), over Stutzle (center / winger) or Drysdale (defenseman), it would be a mistake, because YOU see them as equal. I'm also not assuming that Raymond is high on Yzerman's list. I'm just making the point that he could be, and higher than any other center (outside of Byfield) or defenseman. So if that were the case, it would be wise to take the winger (BPA). I've never said I like Raymond over Stutzle. In fact, I said the exact opposite. As of right now, my list would be 1. Lafreniere, 2. Byfield, 3. Stutzle, 4. Raymond... Which could and likely will change before the draft... Anyway, we have different preferences at this point. No big deal.

"All is equal" is rarely ever the case though. That's my point. For exactly the reason bolded. Regarding the underlined. That's all I was looking for... You were acting as if it would be a huge mistake to draft Raymond over Stutzle or Drysdale, because of position. Now, you're saying that Yzerman and his scouts know much more than any of us, thus likely having a different list. You've finally admitted that if Raymond is deemed to be the best player available, we should draft him. Yes, we should. Which brings me back to the original point... From the little I do know, at this point I'd draft Raymond over Drysdale or Rossi, because I think he is that much better. You disagree, which is fine. We'll see how it all plays out.

It seems like you're saying one thing, "draft best player available", and then in a roundabout way, saying the complete opposite, "draft for need"... Correct me if I'm wrong there, but that's what it sounds like to me... Let's say Yzerman's list is... 1. Lafreniere 2. Byfield 3. Raymond 4. Stutzle 5. Drysdale We end up dropping to 3rd overall. Do you think we should pass on Raymond who Yzerman and his scouts believe is the best player available, and take Stutzle or Drysdale because they fill a "more valuable" position? I personally have Stutzle slightly ahead of Raymond at this point, but would be thrilled with either. But it seems like you prefer Stutzle and Drysdale, just because of the position they play... If that's the case, fine, but I strongly disagree.

I think you need a mix of both at all positions.

Why would we talk about Cholowski in the Mantha thread? That would be dumb...

What's funny about that? Both could be true... Is it Blashill's fault this team sucks? Nope. Is it possible that another coach could get more out of this team? Yup. Does Blashill need to be replaced this season? Nope. Should Blashill be replaced if a better coach comes along? Yup.

Except for the fact that I never "completely laid down for this player". I simply said we should have claimed him, and added to our terrible goaltending depth. You disagreed, which is completely fine, but you go on and on and on and on with bulls*** about why I'm apparently wrong, because Yzerman says so... get over it. You're the only one that still cares about this dumb debate.

And as I've said several times now... IF all else is equal, I would take the center. The problem is, I don't necessarily think Rossi will be a center at the NHL level. If he isn't a center at the NHL level, he ISN'T a center. He WAS a center in the past. Like I said before, a lot of NHL forwards have played center at some point in their career, most as recent as juniors or even the minors. That doesn't mean they have what it takes to be an NHL center. So no, if Rossi isn't an NHL center, he likely won't be playing it, even if there are injuries... If Crosby were a winger, I think he would be just as an effective player. If he were a winger, the Pens would have likely constructed their team completely different, so it's hard to say if they would have won as many or more Cups in that time, or where they would be now. Anyway, we agree that if all else is equal, you take the center.

You're saying that the position that Crosby plays is what makes him so valuable. He can (and has) elevate(d) his wingers his entire career. I'm saying that it's not the position, it's the player. He could (and would) have elevated his centers just as much if he were a winger. Elite players elevate good players, regardless of position. Don't mistake any of this in me saying that wingers are just as valuable as centers, because I think centers are more valuable, just not as much as you, and many others seem to think. An elite winger could elevate Larkin into a 90 point, elite center. An elite center could elevate Zadina into a 40 goal, elite winger. I want the best player available, regardless of position. Because again, I'm not convinced that Rossi will translate to an NHL center. If two players are perceived to have similar skill sets, and project to play the same position (which could be the case), I'd take the right-handed winger, over the left-handed winger.

"Good" wingers are available in free agency, but how many elite wingers make it to free agency? Very few. The same is the case for centers and defensemen. We're not talking about "good" players. If we're drafting top 4, we should be hoping for an elite player. I'm not disputing that centers are more valuable than wingers in the NHL, but in my opinion you are overstating just how much more valuable they are. If Crosby or McDavid were wingers they would be just as valuable to their team, as they are as centers. It just so happens that most elite forwards usually play center at some point in their career, and usually continue that in the NHL. I'm obviously not saying that Raymond is anywhere close to Lafreniere. I'm saying I think he's close to Rossi, and between the two, I'd prefer Raymond.

Sure, if they are that close, you take the center, IF you think that center will translate well to the NHL. I personally don't. Marner played quite a bit of center, along with Dvorak in London, but has been a winger at the NHL level. In saying that, if Rossi becomes an elite level winger like Marner, no one will be complaining. The thing is, I think Raymond could have that sort of upside as well, but is also a right-handed shot... But again, if Yzerman is confident that Rossi will be an NHL center, I'm not as worried about it. Regarding the bold, again I disagree. It's obviously extremely hard to acquire elite centers or defensemen in their prime, but I don't think it's that much easier to acquire elite (right-handed) wingers in their prime... If we could trade for one literally any time, we would have by now. Teams aren't giving up a Forsberg, Pastrnak, Nylander, Marner, Boeser, Debrincat, etc. unless you're willing to pay a premium.

Again, best player available, implying that maybe Raymond is better or translates better to the NHL. I have no idea, because like I said, I don't know enough about any of these guys yet. And like I said, I think Stutzle should be ahead of all of those guys at 3rd overall, and don't necessarily think Rossi is a lock to be a center at the NHL level. St. Louis won the Cup last year with a high end center, O'Reilly, which coincidentally is the type of player I can see Larkin molding into in the next few years. After him, their next best player is Tarasenko, a high end winger. Washington won the Cup the previous year, led by their elite winger, Ovechkin. I think Kuznetsov is a hell of a center, but I also think Ovechkin elevates him quite a bit. I'm not saying we don't need an elite center, I'm saying take the best player available regardless of position.

I disagree. Always take the best player available, regardless of position. We need elite wingers, just as much as we need elite centers. It's also not a guarantee that Stutzle or Rossi will be centers at the NHL level. I think it's likely Stutzle will, despite him playing mostly on the wing this season, but I think it's unlikely Rossi will, despite him playing mostly center this season... Even if Rossi does become a center, will he be more of an impact player down the middle, than Raymond can be on the wing? Maybe, but it won't be because of the position he plays. I think a high-end winger like Raymond can elevate a center like Veleno or Rasmussen, just as much as a high-end center like Rossi, can elevate a winger like Zadina or Fabbri. We need elite players to compliment some of the high end players we already have in the organization, regardless of position.

Sure, but when comparing two players that have similar usage in all situations (including power-play), you should take that into consideration when evaluating their offensive game. I'd understand not taking power-play time into account if we were comparing Filppula to Helm or whatever, but Fabbri and Zadina have had similar opportunity on the power-play.

Oh, I completely agree that you should never draft a player, or not draft a player because of size, but I'm just saying that it does, and should matter. I think the things you stated above should be first priority, and then things like size and handedness should be considered in a possible tie breaker. I don't know enough about any of these guys yet, outside of the top 2-3, but I would love to add one of the highly skilled right-handed Swedish wingers, if we don't luck out in the draft lottery. This team desperately needs to add some high end right-handed wingers. In saying that, I would never draft purely for need, but if Yzerman felt Rossi and Raymond were pretty similar across the board, I'd want him to take the righty...

These traits should definitely be high on any scouts / GM's list, but you can't pretend that size is a complete non-factor. Every attribute, including size should be considered when evaluating, and eventually picking one of these players. If Rossi truly is the best player available when Yzerman makes his pick, I'm sure he'll consider him, but I don't know that he will be. I could easily see Stutzle dropping outside of the top 3, and I think one of the Swedish kids, or maybe even Drysdale could easily go 3rd overall.

I agree with the top 3. I'd prefer one of the Swedish bros over Rossi / Askarov though.