krsmith17

No, we don't "get it off". I took it off. I had some annual leave that I had to use before the new year, or I'd lose it, so I took two weeks off over Christmas. Oh, you mean the way you've changed the argument 5 times now, and do it every single time we dispute anything? The original topic was is Larkin a 1C? Then it evolved into is Larkin closer to a Bergeron level player or a J Staal level player? Then, does Larkin suck? Then, does Larkin deserve the brunt of the blame for the team sucking? Then, something else. Now, I'm not even sure. I've lost track... I'll wrap things up really nice for you though. Yes, Larkin is a 1C, despite his struggles early this season. Larkin is a hell of a lot closer to an elite 1C, than a borderline 2C/3C. No, Larkin does not suck. Yes, Larkin deserves blame, but not all of it. Anything else? I'm aware that expectations matter. But so do 50 other aspects of evaluating a player. Again, be down on Larkin. I am too. I'm not dumb enough to think he sucks after a down season though. Call whoever you want "sucky", but you'll be called out every time for saying a number one center "sucks"... Again, it's dumb. And yes, Ehn, a borderline NHLer that if waived, not a single other team would claim, sucks. And yes, Howard, an aging vet, that has fallen off a cliff the past season, needs to retire. I'm not pretending to know whether he'll retire or not, but based on this season, he sure as hell should...

2:17PM here, on Christmas holidays. I was out at my in-laws that day. Very possible... Not strawmanning at all. You're the one that always goes on and on about how you don't care about age or experience, you just care about on ice product. So you don't care about age, but you do care about "expectations"? Why does that matter? Larkin is supposed to be one of our top players, and a lot of nights, he has been one of our best players. He may not get on the score sheet every night, but he has a positive impact in other areas. Dude he's 35 years old. He's regressed big time. It happens. How is that "blatant hypocrisy"? I agree with those things, so obviously I would "like" it... Larkin doesn't "suck". Zadina doesn't "suck". If they have a bad game, or a bad stretch of games and you say that, it wouldn't bother me. What bothers me is people taking things to the extreme and saying a number one center "sucks", because of a down year. Again, it's dumb. If you had said Larkin needs to produce more, you wouldn't hear an argument from me, because I 100% agree with that. All the other bulls*** is what I disagree with. Where the f*** are you getting that I don't think you should complain about anything? You're being lazy man. I've never once said anything to indicate that I don't think you should complain about this team, or even Larkin, or Zadina. Put some rational thoughts together instead of the tired old "so and so sucks". It's dumb.

I agree. Unless Veleno ends up our 2C and Rasmussen 3C.

Honestly don't remember saying that... Must have been drunk lol... Either way, that was a dumb thing to say, just like you saying it now. Nagle sucks. Comrie would be a massive upgrade over him and Poulin. So expectations matter when evaluating a player, but age doesn't? What about draft position? St. Louis stupidly gave up on Fabbri. They traded him for basically nothing. He was still a high draft pick (selected 6 spots after Larkin). Bertuzzi is a year older than both. And STILL neither are having a significantly better season than Larkin. Larkin is having a down year. I've said that several times. He deserves scrutiny, but saying he sucks is just dumb. I'm not making excuses for Larkin. He hasn't been good enough. All I'm doing is explaining to you why he doesn't "suck"... This all started when people said Larkin isn't a 1C. He is. He was last season based on his offense, and he is this season based on his defense. I love Howard. Always have. Who is saying this? And this is the over the top negativity that is making me sick of this place, and the Red Wings internet world in general. Things are bad. Really bad. But there are still a lot of bright spots on this team and in the organization. For the most part, I like to focus on the positives. Whether you want to admit it or not, Larkin is one of those positive. So is Zadina. As well as Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Veleno, Rasmussen, Hronek and Seider. I like you a lot better when you talk about Bertuzzi and Seider...

My personal evaluation on watching both a LOT over the past couple years... What are you basing your assertion on? Stats? Forget the fact that Rasmussen is a year older...

Again, I said a 1st, or a 2nd plus. Getting a 1st in exchange for a 3rd would be huge. Getting a 2nd plus a prospect in exchange for a 3rd would also be huge. That prospect could even be that Lauko kid... I don't see the point in getting the Habs to retain $500K, but yeah, I'd take Alzner.

What? No... I disagree on who you think will be the better offensive player...

And that's a fair assumption. I just disagree.

Umm not at all. Like I said, I agree with pretty much everything you said, I just disagree that Rasmussen will be a better center than Veleno. I know how much that bother you... "Tooooo easy".

Where are you getting the "1st +" and "1st and 2nd" from? I said I'd want a 1st OR 2nd plus for taking on Backes, in exchange for a 3rd round pick. I don't know much about Lauko, but just looking at his stats this season, he looks like he could be a good pickup. I don't expect the Bruins would have much interest in many of our guys, which is why I'd offer them a pick. I wouldn't include Athanasiou in any Backes (or other salary dump) trade. I'd take Alzner, and wouldn't even necessarily demote him. Alzner has fallen off quite a bit, but still probably an upgrade over Biega / Lashoff / McIlrath...

I pretty much agree with all of this except the bolded, and I'm pretty sure you knew that, and probably why you said it... If we end up drafting Byfield or Stutzel, I think one of Rasmussen or Veleno should move to the wing. As you know, my pick would be Rasmussen, since I think Veleno is a better center. IF those 4 were our centers, I think Veleno would be 3C and Rasmussen 4C.

Definitely not good enough, offensively. But not bad, considering his defensive game this season. Far from blameless, but also far from THE blame. Everyone shares the blame from top to bottom. Absolutely. No denying that. Larkin is / will be a legit 1C, but if he's our 2C in a couple years, we'll be in great shape.

I don't see any harm in us taking on a year of Backes, if it gets us a high quality asset. We have plenty of cap space going into next season. I think that's overpayment on our end. If we're taking Backes, I'd want their 1st, or 2nd plus, for our 3rd and a throw in prospect. Giving up Athanasiou, and retaining 50% of his cap hit would be a terrible deal in my opinion. Wouldn't you be the first one to complain if we went after another project player?

No, he doesn't "need" elite wingers, as he proved last season. But it would help to have some consistency and maybe a slight upgrade in his linemates. Larkin isn't elite, therefore, he's not the type of center (Crosby, McDavid, MacKinnon) that can make whoever he plays with look amazing. He needs help. That doesn't mean he's not a number one center. There are plenty of number one centers in the league that can't do it all on their own. Capable was probably the wrong choice of word there, but Mantha, in my opinion, is the only legit top line winger of the three, and he's been injured half the season. Bertuzzi and Fabbri are both middle six (2nd line) wingers on a contending team. That's not to say they can't or won't play up the lineup, similar to Hyman with the Leafs, but they're not legitimate top line wingers in my opinion. Give Larkin two legit top line wingers and he's a stud. He's not regressing. He's having a down year. There's a huge difference. If he finishes this season and next with sub 50-60 points, I'll get on board. But to sit here and bash him under these circumstances is absurd. So, the team playing like s*** is on Larkin? Do you even watch the games anymore?

No we don't have Pickard and Nagle in GR. Nagle is in Toledo where he belong. He's 32 years old and has played 99% of his pro career in the ECHL. He's awful. Kevin Poulin is in Grand Rapids with Pickard, who is also awful. Comrie is arguably better than all three of those guys, but yeah, it was totally a smart move to let him go... Why would we need another minor league tendy? Because outside of Pickard, the rest of them suck, and if we have one injury to Bernier, Howard or Pickard, the Griffins are screwed. Larkin "sucks" but Bertuzzi and Fabbri are having "great" years? Bertuzzi has 5 more points than Larkin. Based on Fabbri's point pace, he would have 3 more points than Larkin with the same number of games played. Neither have the defensive responsibility that Larkin has. Larkin deserves the scrutiny, but no one really deserves much praise. Hence why so many felt we didn't deserve an All-Star selection this season. So Larkin DID have a great season last year? Did you considered him a 1C last year? Of course you did. Because he was. One bad season doesn't change that. It just changes some irrational fans opinion that flip-flop at a moments notice. The only games Howard should be playing next season are in a beer league. Guy needs to retire. He'll be 36 years old, coming off his worst statistical season ever, and you think he should sign another NHL contract? I hope for Howard's sake, he hangs them up. I've been a big fan over his career, but another season could really sour a lot of fans. No, if Zadina had a great year next year, I would expect you to come around on him, just like you did with Mantha. That's completely fair and rational. What isn't fair and rational is calling Zadina a "bust" at the age of 18/19, before ever giving him an opportunity to prove himself, or saying Mantha is "lazy" at the age of 21/22, or saying Larkin sucks because he's having a down season, just coming off a near point per game season. You can be hard on a player for having a bad season, or sceptical of a young player, but to say they suck, or they're a bust, is dumb in my opinion. Ok, Zadina doesn't have enough talent. Got it... Zadina is on a very similar trajectory and plays a similar style game as Filip Forsberg. If he becomes a similar player to him, I'm sure we'll all be very happy.

That's my point though. I think the gap would still be rather large if Byfield were 10 months older or if Lafreniere were 10 months younger. To say that the gap would be much closer (possibly nonexistent) if the age gap were smaller would suggest that they're close, or at least will he close in 3+ years when a 10 month age gap doesn't mean as much. To me, that's not the case. It's Lafreniere, a huge gap, and then 2-3 guys that could go number 2.

No doubt, but I think most still see him as a number 2/3 pick. I think most of the hype being cooled is people that were attempting to compare him to Lafreniere. They're not even close in my opinion, and that's taking age fully into account.

The Griffins are also currently without two key players, Hirose and Tangradi. I don't think either are expected to be out long-term. Getting those two back, we could (should) go on a serious run down the stretch.

Reports of his demise?

Yeah, I think so for sure. Assuming Ras stays healthy, continues at the pace he's been playing at, has a good summer / training camp, I think he will start next season as our 3C. (More reason we should be trying to get rid of Nielsen...). I still think Veleno has a higher ceiling, but Rasmussen appears to be further along in his development (being a year older). I've watched most of the games Ras has played this season, and I've been really impressed. Still not sure if he'll be better suited at center or on the wing at the NHL level, but I have more confidence in his ability to play center than I did prior to this season.

I'm talking about this season, at the deadline. They have no cap space. If they want to add anyone to go on a playoff run, they can't, unless they shed a player or two. Backes could be a good trade target for us this season. I doubt this trade specifically happens, but this is the type of trade I'd like to see Yzerman make. Otherwise, I don't see us gaining any more high (1st/2nd) round picks at the deadline...

Yeah, I watched. Was a pretty good game. All of the players we need to get going had good showings tonight. Svechnikov didn't get a point, but played well, and would have been the 3rd assist on the Cholowski goal. Great setup by Veleno by the way. Ras had a good game, with two goals. Tap in on a beautiful play by Terry and a beautiful tip on a shot from Hicketts. There were a couple times we had all five 1st round picks (Rasmussen, Veleno, Svechnikov, Seider and Cholowski) on the power-play. Hopefully they can build off this game, stay healthy, and go on a bit of a run here. They're currently outside of a playoff spot...

Yeah, I'd probably do a 2nd for Glendening or Nemeth. I'm all for taking on a bad contract for assets. Boston might want to add a bit of depth at the deadline, but have no cap space. Maybe we could help them out and take Backes (1 year remaining at $6M). Not sure what kind of return we could get, but maybe their 1st would be on the table...

Yeah, we've agreed plenty over the years. We'll just never be on the same page with Zadina... I don't know. It would depend on the price for me. Howard isn't a quality starter anymore, and we have zero goaltending depth in the organization. I'm all for the "tank", but I still want to be at least somewhat competitive. Losing every game 5-1, 6-2 can be detrimental to the development of the kids. If a team is willing to overpay with a late 1st / early 2nd, I'd consider it. Otherwise, I'd hold onto Bernier for another season.