Richdg

The easy part is to say: "we need to upgrade at x, y, z postions". the harder part is doing it. Lets look at a few things. 1. we don't have much to trade. Burt-old and no trade clause, Dat-old and no trade cluase, Z not really old yetbut how many are willing to take on the remianing 9 years of his contract, franzen-same problem, Ericcson-no trade clause. No 2-3 players in our minors are going to bring a big name. The only real pieces we could trade are Filppula and Kornwall. 2. trying to rebuild via FA is always a crap shoot. You never know how it will turn out. You also tend to overpay for players. 3. The draft. In many ways we got very very lucky. getting 3 superstars: dat, Z and Hommer, that late in a draft is PURE luck. Not going to happen again. But looking past those 3, how mnay superstars or even stars have we drafted in the past decade? Not many. Howard was in the past decade, but after him the next best would be Filppula. good yes, but star?

Hard to say with guys that have yet to play a single professional hockey game. There is a huge step from juniors to the minors, and an even bigger step from the minors to the NHL.

I didn't say stoll was abd 3rd liner. I said Abby is better. Penner is a head case and always has been. That is why the Ducks, Oilers, and soon the Kings have let him go. Polls are like AS teams. Players are voted on by reputations more than production. Go look at both dat and Z since 2008. The game splayed has dropped, the goals scored has dropped, the points have dropped, and the shots have dropped. That is true for both players and for every year. if your line mates fall off that has something to do with overall points, I understand that. But that has nothing to do with games played or shots. dat had 160 shots this year. In 08 and 09 he was in the mid 250's. That is a 40% drop. Z has the same trend going on. Good thing he is signed for 9 more years......

Some version of that will happen. Just a matter of when. Going to Europe isn't that bad. yes they trips will be 2 weeks long, but still it will work. BTW the Super series in Rugby has worse travel. they go for 3-4 weeks at a time. back to the point, you also do it unbalanced. Play the team on your continent say 45-50 times, then go overseas for 2 trips for another 12 games, then have them come to you home. So really only 2 long trips per team.

Abby is better than Stoll, no if's an's or but's about it. Younger and cheaper as well. I wouldn't want penner playing for the griffins, he is a fat lazy player and always has been. which is why he is about to play for his 4th team in his career. Our problems lie in the top 2 lines and the old forwards signed to play there. Burt, Franzen, and Cleary all need to go. Z and dat are dropping fast. Nyquist is an unkown at this point, but is very small for this era of hockey. In many ways, I hope they drop the cap for a year while trying to come up with a long term solution. Gives us the chance to clear out some dead weight.

Ok this is way to long of a post. But there are some very interesting things showing up here, that i have talked about for years. the Kings are bigger, faster, and younger than us in the foward lines. they have 2 forwards under 6ft tall. the have 2 forwards under 200 pounds. Go look at our roster. Then go look at our minor leaguers. far to many guys in the 5-10/180 pound range. The same was true when we played the preds. Of the very few forwards that we have over 6ft/200 punds, only 1 is under 30. the rest are all old broken down, or have no heart. You are also trying to compare forwards that have different styles of play. parise and Brown are not even close. one is a small fast sniper, the other plays a big mans physical game. #6 just isn't possible. Nobody is going to take a guy that just had knee surgery. Yes the Wings need some changes, but they are not going to come at once. 8-10 new players are needed, but it will take 2 off seasons to happen.

Stall better than Abdelakader? You are kidding right? you do realize that Justin outscored Stall this season right? Justin-25 is just entering what should be his best years. Stall 29 has been at the peak of his career.

Yes there is risk here, but if some forward thinking types get involved, there could be some huge upsides. For example, how about a super league? the original 6 in NA and 6 in Europe all in the same league? think about it, how big would that be. The first truely international professional league. yes the long contracts will come to an end. There are several and all are bad. Go look at franzen or Dipatro (spelling). IIRC Franzen-33 has 8 years left on his contract. bad bad deal. last thought. bettmen was hired by the owners. they like him. he isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

You read that wrong. he will be cheaper to get being a pending UFA. IE cost us fewer players to aquire. I guess you are to young to remember when Primeau used to hit guys in the head with his stick while sitting on our bench. If he doesn't get caught, it is a great play. We he about how smart or crafty he is..... Guys have been doing this type of stuff since the begining of time. Kinda like corked bats or cut baseballs.

Clowe is 29 and a UFA after the 12/13 season. He might be cheap. Or at least cheaper than someone signed long term. He is the type of plyer we need about 3-4 more of. Big, tough, and gritty. he has been fairly consistant the last 4 years. Right around 20 goals, 60 points, 100 PIM every year. As for the original question, no on both. 1 is old and expensive, the other plays without heart.

So let me get this straight. You, some unkown poster on an opinion forum knows better than the Offical Red Wings site? Ok. Cool. Just wanted to be clear. I am not moving any post whatsoever. Abby is a much better player than tatar all teh way around. he is bigger, faster, tougher, and if a true 3rd/4th line guy. tatar is not. Never will be. He is but one of many faceless organizational players that every team has. he has no trade value and he will never amount to anything at the next level. Doesn't mean he doesn't work or is a bad guy, it only means he isn't good enough. Please stop with the stupid "if you ever watched" comments. They just make you look silly. I have been watching the RW since before you were a gleem in your daddy's eye. I went to games at Olympia. Watched the Wings on PASS. The RW's are not something new to me. Heck I look back at the days when the RW were lucky to win 20 games per year. it hurts. Don't ever want to see it again.

Just a few things. 1. Rumors are Suter and parise will be over 7.5 million each. 2. Ericsson has a no trade clause. So does Burt and Dat btw.... 3. Helm and Abdelkader will both be around 2 million. Somewhere in the 1.8-2.2 range for each. 4. Quincy will be 3.5 million or more. 5. I do hope that Nicky and Hommer call it a career so we all can move on.

Really? http://redwings.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8468083 what does that link say? If I understand English correctly it says Zetterberg is a LW. he was a LW on Dat's line and he was the LW on Filppula's line. Granted he did take faceoffs. So what. He always has. Good prospects don't Play in the AHL for 3 years. 1 (if that long) and done. BTW, just to compare, Abdelakter had 52 points in his only full season in GR. So from a numbers alone standpoint, Tatar is Abdelakader offensively but 3 inches shorter and 35 pounds lighter. Tatar, Emmerton, Muarsk, etc..... are all the same guy. yes they work hard. But just not enough of any one thing to set them apart from a dozen others. These are not really prospects. They are filler. Which yes in the day of a salary cap, you need. But none of these guys are the next stars of our team. We lack those in our youth. Nothing there but journeymen.

I have seen Tatar play 18 or so games the past couple years IN GR. He is nothing more than filler. He is going to be a career minor leaguer that gets calls up to9 fill in when a real NHL player gets hurt. That is all he is.

Yes, plays a full season and can't even get to 60 points in the minors. Everyone that has any talent gets called up, which is way he plays the whole season there. As for bulking up, there is nothing he can do that will make him 6-2/205 which is the norm in the NHL for 2012. Those are the league avergaes-rounded off of course. Tatar is a nothing prospect. We are full of guys like him, and yet can't make any trades. You think there is a relationship there? Nobody wants our "propsects" other the Smith who we better not trade. Speedy Euor forwards that are under 6ft and less than 200 pounds are a dime a dozen. Every team has them. Yes they can help your AHL team, but most are far to small to help at the NHL level.

Zetterberg didn't even play C this year very often. he was the wing on Filppula's line. Moving him away from Dat hurt both.

Tatar????? Surely you jest. Just we we need....Another 5-10/180 forward that doesn't even excell at GR. 58 points in the minors is nothing to get worked upabout. He gets pushed all over the ice. The WC's are not the NHL. hell half the best players for each country are not even there. Plus the wider ice helps a smaller guy like him.

4th line grinder? he can't skate, never could.

One last thought. yes the RW's have built up a tradition of letting guys play forever. paying them well the whole time. But keep in mind, much of that was BEFORE the salary cap. Yes the last group: Draper, maltby, McCarty, and osgood stayed a long time. But none of those guys were big money players. Their cap hits were much smaller. Keeping those guys didn't involve nearly the risk. they were all in the 2 million range. Keeping guys that make 3 times that amount gets far more risky. Not the mention the really bad contracts to Mule and Z. IIRC 1 has 8 years left and the other 9. 10 million per year tied up in 2 guys that are under contract into their 40's...... YUCK!

Per cap geek, we are at 43.5 million right now for the upcoming season. The group of Nicky, Hommer, Helm, Abdelkader, and Quincy will be between 13 and 16 million. That is the best guess for now. We can debate how much everyone is worth untill we are blue in the face, but that will mean we are in the 57-60 million range. So back to my point, roam for 1 FA. maybe if we are closer to 56 we can get a Suter or a Parise, but not both. Over 60 and we MAY not even be able to add 1 of them-depending on the final cap number. If any of the rumors are true about Suter and Parise going after 7.5 million per year, expect that to go higher. Bidding wars happen all the time. But even if it don't. Does adding a Suter or parise to the team that got beat in the 1st round make us a SC team? Opinions will very. But and here is the kicker, we get to do this over again next year. 6 are UFA's. So we end up treading water here. Not matter what happens, it will be fun to watch!

Everyone of course has their own opinions on Hommer coming back. So let's play what if for a few minutes. if Hommer and Nicky resign, that means we have 14 forwards and 7 Dmen signed. That kinda kills any dreams of big name FA's coming. Forwards: dat, Mule, Burt, Z, Filppula, Nyquist, Abdelakader, Helm, Muarsk, Miller, eaves, Emmerton, Cleary, and Sheahan. Yes we could send 1 or 2 down to GR. So a little wiggle room here. On D we have: Nicky, Nick, White, Quincy, Ericcson, Kindl, and Smith. Other than Smith no one else can go down IIRC, and Smith has all but been promised a spot. Money is also getting tight at this point. If we have 20 million to spend-again no one knows the amount yet, it is mostly spent. 2 for helm, 2 for Abdelkader, 3.5 for Quincy, 5 for Nicky, and say 3 for Hommer. That is 15.5 right there. 4.5 million isn't going to get any of the big name younger FA's. if might get us 35 year old Doan however. This would create something of a FA/roster nightmare for next year. Nicky, Homer, Cleary, Fippula, White, Howard would all be UFA's. that is 6 of the 19 regulars all becoming UFA's at the same time.

Ok the playoffs are not over, and nothing really happens untill then. But what are the off seasons dates of importance. The draft is in June, and FA starts July 1. When do we find out the salary cap? What are the offical cutoff dates for RFA's?

First of all, Howdy fellow Wingnuts! Now that that is out of the way, I am going to take a risk. I am going to disagree with a HOF in Jimmy D. It is time for the Wings to make major changes. So here are my thoughts. 1. The Wings should be thinking 10 new players over the next 2 off seasons. I understand that our overall team age is mid pack, but our stars and leaders are all 30+. Add in all the extra games they have played in the playoffs, most of them need to be considered 2 years older than the calender says they are. If you look at our core group: Datsyk, Z, Burt, franzen, Fillpula, Cleary, Hommer, Lidstrom, Stuart, and Kronwall, they are all over 30, play fewer games each year due to injuries, and have declining numbers. Some of these guys are UFA's and should walk. Others are already to old to have much trade value. Others are on the edge of losing value. 2. I would look to change out 5 this off season and 5 next year. Good news is, we have money to spend. Most would agree we need to get bigger, faster, younger, and grittyer. No not one demensional fighters, but guys that check and work the boards. If they also drop the gloves from time to time, great! But that is not the priority. 3. Let's start with G. We are set with Howard and if Mac is healthy, we are good at the backup position. No real need to spend any money here. 4. Defense. Currently we have the following under contract: Kronwall, Erickson, Kindl, White, Quincy, and Smith. That is 6. But there are some good UFA Dmen available, and let's not forget the captain. if Nick wants to return, GREAT! But not at more than 3 million per year. There are of course a couple UFA's that we should take a strong run at. Everyone know Suter. He is a 27 year old American Dman, and very good at both end of the ice. Throw him a 7 year, 42 million offer. But there is another guy that we shoudl also strongly consider: Carle with the Flyers. he is also a 27 year old American Dman. Not quite as good on the D end, but better than Suter on O. Might-key word-might be cheaper. I would offer and make a play for both. But why? That makes 9 on the D if Nick comes back??? true. But it gives us the option of sending Smith back to the minors for one more year to over rippen, and then makes some D avilable to trade. I would love to see a D that lined up like this: Lidstrom-White Suter-Carle Erikson-Quincy Kindl Smith in the minors to replace Nicky next season Kronwall as trade bait. 5. Forwards. This is the area that we need to do the most work. we need to add 3+ new forwards this year and another 3-5 next year. We have to get bigger, faster, stronger, and tougher. We have plenty of good young forwards for the 3rd and 4th lines, plus the 2 spare forwards. Emmerton, Abdelkater, Muarsk, Helm, Miller, Eaves-if healthy, Sheahan, Cleary-he really belongs in one of these 2 lines, plus any number of other guys from GR. all have speed, most are young and cheap. If we decide to add another via FA, I am a fan of Dave Jones with Colorado. he has good size: 6-2/210, young 27 IIRC, and plays both ways. He is a bigger younger faster and healthier version of Cleary. Now for the harder part. The top 2 lines. This is where the problems start. this is where the "big names" are, the big money, and the fan fav's are found. Let's start with Burtuzzi. Big, old, declining production, and signed. has almost 0 trade value. Franzen-big, fast, strong, signed long term, and completely disappears for long stretches of the season. He is cap friendly and does have some trde value. Datsyk. One of the best in the game. has great trade value, but moving him might cause riots in the streets. Long story short......hold onto all 3 for at least 1 more season. They are the top line, at least on paper. That brings us to the second line. As of today it is Zetterberg, Nyquist, and Filppula. That group has some talent. but it is very small. This is were i look to make at least 2 moves. Just thinking out loud...... What would it take to get Staal from the pens? kronwall and...... How much would it take to get van Reimsdyk from the Flyers? Filppula and........ or How much to get Pacioretty from the Habs? Or a Ryan from the Ducks? Point is, now we have some pieces we can trade with and get bigger, younger and faster. Even if it took moving Zetterberg, I would do it. a second line of Nyquist, Staal and Ryan looks a lot better to me than a line of Z, filppula and Nyquist. 6. The for 2013 we replace nicky with smith, and look at moves for the top line. Ok, there they are. Go ahead flame away!!!! LOL!

It is time to part ways with Hommer. To old, costs to much money, and is a liability other than on the PP in front of the net. How do you keep him just for the PP? If we do, then we can't roll 4 lines.......

Our top four, who make 20+ million collectively scored 2 freaking goals! Yes scoring in the playoffs is hard to do. But how does the series change if we have 5 more goals? just 5 and we win the series. Yes those goals could have come from many different sources. but if you really are a top player, amking top money, put the damn puck in the net! Who is supposed to lead the team? The guys making 1 million or less, or the guys making 6 million or more? datsyuk makes over 6 million and scored 0 goals. Burt makes 4 million scored 0 goals. Z makes over 6 million scored 1 goal. Franzen makes 4 million scored 1 goal. This is/was the problem. Now, the part we don't know, as I have said before, is this a trend or a one off? We don't know. They were all healthy. That we do know. This could be a huge problem. 4 guys, all signed for at least 2 more years to big money, that are not able to play like they are paid. 2 of them-datsyuk and Burt have no trade clauses. BTW, 67% of zero is zero. So scoring 67% of the goals, when we didn't score isn't saying much. Yes I do expect big money to produce. Otherwise we are wasting money.