Richdg

The Jets are ofensively challanged. 19th in the league in scoring. Tatar, Nyquist, and Smith will add 45 goals to their team. The Jets are also a small market team. Adding more O by adding guys that have reasonable contracts could very well be appealing to them. As for us we would more than replace the scoring we lose by bringing up MANtha, adding Trouba, healthy Jurco, and Svechnikov in a few months. We have a surplus of F's that we can move. As for the other defenders on the team, all are over 30 and have big cap hits. All need to be replaced over the next 3 seasons. Green has 1 more year, Kornwall has 2, Eericsson has three. None of them can stay healthy. Smith is a 1st round bust and it is too early to know if Marchenko, Sproul, and Oullett ever become anything. On that note. I would be perfectly fine standing pat and playing those 3 young dman every game with DD and 2 of the old vets and finding out what we have. But doing this means "tanking the season" to many fans.

You are not going to get any young players for Howard. Would you make that deal? No. Maybe a mid round draft pick-3rd or 4th. The bigger issue is the cap hits. So you would have to bring back something like his. The key is filling a hole on the team when you do it.

Its not that hard to move him. The question is what is coming back? Most likely a similiar type of contract. For example, we send Howard to LA they send us Brown. That is the type of deal we can expect. Or a Howard to the Yotes for Hanzel. Etc.... Point is it can be done.

To get you have to give. Smith is a UFA after this year and doesn't have much trade value because of it, but he does fit the bill of what the Jets want-LH Dman in mid 20's. Nyquist and Tatar are not stars nor are they guys that can carry their team to the PO's. They are secondary scorers and those guys are always available on the UFA market-IE easy to pick up. Neilson and Vanek come to mind. As for the assesment on our team, it is the same as it has been for the last 5 years or so. We will finish somewhere between 6th and 12th in the EC just making or just missing the PO's. To be a better team we need better players. Trouba, Fowler, and Shattenkirk are all improvements over what we currently have on the BL. Shattenkirk is a proven 45 point guy, Fowler a proven 35 point guy, and Trouba has the POTENTIAL to be better than either of them. Add in DD and you are looking at one of the best top 4 BL groups in the entire league. All of which are 27 years old or younger-a group we should be able to keep together for the next 6+ years. Yes the chances of this happening are less than 1%. But this is a fan forum and that is what we do. Play the what if game. There are other players out there that could also be available and we are just not hearing about them. These guys just happen to be in the news.

Lets not over think what I said earlier and worry about the expansion draft to much. Nor do I want to highjack this thread. But they do tie together a bit. Lets pretend for a minute that my trades go through. We send Tatar, Nyquist, and Smith for Trouba, our 2017 1st for Fowler and some combination of younger players not named Larkin, MANtha, or Mrasek and get Shattenkirk. Use some combo of Oullett, Sproul, Sheahan and Marchenko to get him. We now finish the year and are getting ready for the ED. We have 2 options, one of which is 8 skaters and 1 G. We have to include all NMC contracts. We have 1-Neilson. All 1st and second year pros are naturally protected and don't have to be on our list/can't be drafted. Without reading all of the fine print, this should cover Larkin (second year pro) Svechnikov (1st year pro) and Lil Bert (second yea pro). Our 8 skaters can then be: Neilson, Mantha, AA, DD, Trouba, Fowler, Shattenkirk, and 1 other skater, plus Mrasek. LV can only draft 1 guy from our team. Most of what is left is older guys with large contracts. Guys like: Z, Helm, Glendening, Sheahan, Abby, Green, Kronwall, Ericsson, and Howard. Not one of those guys being gone is going to have a major impact on our team by being drafted. In fact LV would be doing us a favor in taking any one of those guys/contracts. Again I will add, I am not an expansion draft guru. The fine print on 1st/2nd year players needs to be clarified. When does larkin start getting counted as a 3rd year guy? I am not 100% sure on that.

I am not up on the expansion draft at all. But I thought I read you could do 4 D and 1 less F. If you can't that is fine as well. Get Trouba and Fowler then go after Shattenkirk in UFA, leaving Green, Kornwall and Ericsson unprotected and pray that one is taken.

As I was saying....... Create some value by playing great!

Yes it is a dream. But it also possible if Holland would act. No you can't do it all in one day. But let's pretend for a few minutes. 1. You send Tatar, Nyquist, and Smith to the Jets. That opens up 3 spots on the roster for Trouba, MANtha, and Jurco when he returns. That also opens up about 10 million in cap space. Resign trouba-that should cost 4.5-5 million for the next 7-8 years. 2. Now you have cap space to make a move for another player. Ok our 2017 1st round pick to the Ducks for Fowler. The Ducks get what they want and we get what we need. Fowler has a 4 million cap hit and 1 more year to go. Both of those deals can be done any time. Going after Shattenkirk will take more time. We don't know how stuck on becoming a UFA he is. Maybe that is his ultimate goal. If so then getting him isn't worth it. Maybe getting a fair deal is all he is interested in. The Blues are cap tight and can't do much in terms of resigning him. We can if we try to. We have enough young and cheap pieces not named Larkin and MANtha to get the job done. If Shattenkirk is willing to resign that is.

Agreed on playing in GR vs on the 4th line in Detroit. The fact that we as fans have to wonder about this says a ton about management/coaching in Detroit.

There are 3 good Dmen that are rumored to be available: Trouba, Fowler, and Shattenkirk. Anyone of these 3 makes us a better team. getting 2 or 3 of these guys fixes our blueline for the next 6-8 years. Imagine if you will a top 4 of: DD-Shattenkirk Fowler-Trouba Those 4 will eat up 50 mins of game time per night. You are also looking at a group that will put up 140+ points and 30+ goals. The question becomes how? What does each guy cost, what does the other team want, and do we have the cap space to do it? So the rumors: The Jets want a LHed Dman of the same age for Trouba + another player/pick. The Ducks want 0 salary/cap coming back for Fowler. The Blues are unclear. On our side the 3 of them are going to cost around 15 million per year in salary/cap space. We don't have the room atm. We would have to move guys out.

With larkin getting into a fight and winning, it does raise some questions. 1. Does Blashill now drop him down to the checking line? 2. Since Holland hates fighting does Larkin now get traded? Sad part is I wish I was just being funny. But track records........LOL. I mean after all we can't have that type of behavior for a team with so much class....right?

None of the group of Ott, Sheahan, helm, Miller or Glendening are key to winning anything now or in the future. All are 3rd/4th line guys that can help a good team in specific areas. But we are not a good team. The part that troubles me even more is, if Mantha is brought up he will sit a few games before he sees the ice. he needs to be playing on one of the top 2 lines 15+ minutes a game. I know, preaching to the choir......

BTW Mantha with the Hat trick tonight, gives him 5 goals in 3 games. Why isn't he in Detroit?

As I stated earlier to fix the RW's is going to take some time. Like 2+ seasons. So if I was the GM how would I go about it? Ok...... 1. Offer Nyquist, tatar, Smith and a low 2017 pick to the Jets for Trouba and their 2018 2rd round pick. That opens up 3 spots on the roster for Trouba, Jurco and Kronwall. It also frees up the cap space to resign trouba. That gives us the following lineup: mantha-larkin-AA Z-Frans-Abby Jurco-Sheahan-Vanek Ott-Helm-Glendening Miller DD-Trouba Kronwall-Marchenko Oullett-Green E-Sproul Mrasek Howard 2. Over the course of this season move Ott, Vanek, and Green to PO contenders for 2017/2018 draft picks. Those are the type of players PO teams look to add. If/when those guys are moved out then room is created for Lil Bert and Svechnikov to join the big club in Detroit. 3. 2017 Draft. Do whatever we have to to get Cullen Foote in the 1st. Even if he ends up being our only draft pick next summer. Over the course of next summer leave no stone unturned in the attempt to move Z and Kronwall. By then it might also be possible to LTIR E with his bad hip.All of which frees up massive amounts of cap space. 4. The 2017/18 season is not going to be a season with a bunch of winning. 30-40 wins at best. That is fine. Because when the 2018 draft gets here the poor record and extra picks that we picked up in the Trouba deal plus anything we can get from moving Ott, Vanek, Green, Z, and Kronwall all get packaged together for A. Svechnikov. BTW if you live in Michigan go watch him play with the Muskegon Lumberjacks. For the 2017/18 season we also add Mckee to the lineup to protect all of the good young talented F's on the team. Now we have a roster that looks like this: Mantha-Larkin-AA Svechnikov-Frans-Abby Jurco-Sheahan-Svechnikov McKee-Helm-Glendening Lil Bert DD-Trouba Oullett-Marchenko Sproul-Foote Russo Mrasek Vet backup At this point we also have a ton of cap room so we can add vets as needed to upgrade over the guys that don't pan out. We have now reached the spot where starting in the 2018/19 season we are on the upswing again.

There is no way Z is able to finish his contract with anyone. He has 5 more years left on it. But the chance to go win another SC? That can be enticing to most guys. That is what they play for. Or it should be.

As of today here are the players that make up our core, or should be making up our core: Larkin, Mantha, AA, Svechnikov, DD, Mrasek. Those 6 should be held on to and played as much as possible in Detroit. The next group we need to find out about are: Sproul, Oullett, Jurco, Nosek, Lil Bert, and Nastsiak. That is only 12 players out of a 23 man roster. Everyone else and I do mean everyone can be moved in the right deal. Some are impossible to move, others can be moved next spring at the trade deadline to teams looking to make a playoff run. Vanek and Ott could both bring back some decent picks. Next summer it is possible to (don't panic here) move Kronwall and Z in the right deals to young teams on the upswing. Now I doubt that that ever happens, but it is possible. For example a team like Florida might want to bring in a veteran like Z to help them develop and grow into a SC contender.

I beg to differ on the need to protect our 1st round pick. Just for the sake of the conversation, would I trade our 1st in 2017 for Trouba? Maybe. Trouba was the 9th pick in the 1st a few years ago. Lets compare him with another projected top 10 pick in next years draft: Cullen Foote. Both are RHed Dmen that are around 6-3/200 and considered good all around prospects. Which would you rather have? Who helps us more for the 2017/18 season? Foote will be 18 at that point and Trouba is 22. That is the difference and that is all. Yes it is possible that we get 4 more years out of Foote-being younger and all, but he has also never played a pro game and could be a bust-it does happen. The point in all of that was, in the right deal yes we can and should deal our 1st round pick.

Why woluld we trade Dekeyser for trouba? DD is the better player. Yes he now costs more but Trouba hasn't signed his new deal yet. Both have played 3 seasons in the NHL and DD has more points, better career +/- numbers, etc... We need to keep DD and ADD Trouba so that they can be our top pair.

Fix this team? This season? Not possible. One of the things many of us have talked about for several years is, what is the direction of this team? Are we rebuilding? Are we going for the cup? Is just maintaining the streak the sole focus? Now we have none of that. Holland himself has stated "we are not a cup contender". Ok fine. Most os us would agree with that statement. If that is true, then why did we sign veteran guys like Ott, Vanek, and neilson-players that cup contenders look to bring in each year? All those moves have done is force talented youth back to the minors, eat up our cap space, and keep us from making other moves. Now the past is the past and we can't do anything about that-good or bad. So what about the future? 1. Mantha needs to be brought up asap. Mantha, larkin, and AA should be on a line together playing 15+ mins per game every game. No "tinkering" by Blashill. Play them! They are our future and our present. If that means we need to cut/trade/waive player x y or z, then so be it. 2. Play the young D. ATM we have no idea if any of Oullett, Sproul, Russo, etc... can play at the NHL level. How do we find out? By playing them. 3. Mrasek may or may not become a star. He needs to play. But at the same time the only way we can ever hope to get anything for Howard is to play him. We need to go back to an every other game rotation for the G's. Hope Mrasek improves and that Howard creates value. 4. We all need to understand that this team has been trending down for several years and that will continue. Yes we will finish somewhere between 5th and 10th in the EC. Meaning we should end up with the 8th to 16th draft pick. We are still better than a few teams so we will not end up with the top pick. Accept this now, it will make the season easier to deal with.

Yes I understand there are parts of what follows that could be in about 5 different threads, but this is addressing all of the issues in one thread so bare with me here. The first thing we all have to do is the easy part: identify the problems. There are several. We need to improve the D. Both defensively and offensively. But our biggest issue is our O. The problems with our O have been talked to death around here and elsewhere. lack of front of net guys, lack of guys working the corners, lack of guys working behind the net. lack of physical play. This year lack of shooting. The second half of the year G has been an issue. Howard was bad in January and lately Mrasek has not been sharpe-he might just be tired. Now the harder part, fixing the problems. It is impossible to move/get rid of everyone that we should. In a cap world you can't just cut everyone that isn't performing. So this will take time. We have at least 2 more years of making changes ahead of us. I think most of us understand that we all just differ as to how we need to do it. Some want to tank and get the top 10 picks, others hope we can just keep patching holes and be better than everyone else at drafting. The former is a tough pill to swallow and the second is naive. There are some players on this team that right or wrong are not going to get traded or cut. Z, Datsyuk, Abby, Kronwall and maybe Ericsson are here until they choose not to be or their contracts expire. There are some others we just will have to wait it out like Green. So let's start with my thoughts. 1. We have a top line. Let Z-datsyuk-abby play together until retirement. They have alwasy been a good group and will continue to be, even though they are slowing down. 2. Second line starts with Larkin and Mantha. Find them a wing that can match their skill. 3. 3rd line should be Jurco-AA-Tangradi for next season. 2 young guys and a journeyman that does a few things well-like play in front of the net. Tangradi is here until Scvechnikov is ready in a year or 2. 4. The 4th line is made up of Sheahan and Glendening and whatever good skating checker we choose. be it from GR or sign a cheap UFA like Mike Martin to fill out the 3rd spot. Bring Miller back for one more year as the 13th forward. 5. Everyone else not listed above is allowed to walk as a UFA or becomes trade bait. There is only one hole left in the forward group. But we have guys like Nyquist, tatar, and Pulk that can be moved. 6. Plan on keeping 8 Dmen next year. My top pair would be DD and ????. The second pair would be Kronwall and Marchenko, with Ericsson and Green on the third pair. Oullett and Sproul are the 4th pair-otherwise we risk losing them via waivers. That leaves Smith as a tradable piece. 1 hole left to fill on the blueline. 7 G is Mrasek and find a new veteran backup. This means Howard can be moved. By doing this we have 3/4 holes to fill: 2nd line winger, checking winger for the 4th line, top pair Dman,and backup G. But we have Nyquist, tatar, Pulk, Smith, and Howard as trade pieces. We would also have a large amount of cap space if those 5 are in fact moved if we decide to enter the UFA market. Now the hard part. Filling the holes. We have to find dancing partners and more importantly we have to have a GM that looks and tries to make moves. The very first move I would try to make is call the Jets and Islanders and put together a 3 way trade. Something along the lines of: Howard, tatar, and jensen to the Isles, they send Halak to us and hammonic to the Jets, and the Jets send Trouba to us. Halak becomes our vet G and Trouba gets paired with DD to develop as our top pair. That fills 2 of our 4 holes, the money washes out for everyone, and everyone gets a little better. Now we can take Nyquist and Smith and try to work a deal for the second line winger to fill that hole. Our we can stand pat play Nyquist and move Smith for a pick. Same with Pulk. This summer we then draft Gauthier and give him a year or 2 to get ready. After the 2016/17 season Scvechnikov replaces Tangradi who can then be traded. The following year Gauthier replaces Jurco. Of course the big question is who replaces datsyuk in the summer of 2017?

As of today with what we currently know this team looks worse than the 2015/16 team. None of the guys brought in are as good as Datsyuk was. The D is still a mess. There are more questions today than when the season ended. The good news is there is still time to make improvements.

that is your opinion based on nothing. Backes is a better player now and in the past than nielson is. There is 0 debate about this. 3 years from now we will all be bitching about Nielson still being on the team and costing us 5.25 mil in cap hit. This team is slower and softer today than we were last season.

Let Let's see...... Backes 32 6-3/225 has 206 career goals and 460 career points gets signed to a 5 year deal at 6 mil per. Neilson 32 6-1/190 has 119 career goals and 349 points. He signs a 6 year deal at 5.25 mil per. This is a bad deal for us. Holland got screwed. Again.

Just pissing away our cap and Mr. I's cash. Not making us better.

In the last 2-3 days I have seen the RW's tied to the following UFA's: Stamkos-doubt he comes but we shall see...... Lucic-I think he stays west..... Okposo-love to have him.... Martin-really love to have him..... Backes-love to have him..... The question becomes what makes us a better team? Signing say Stamkos and Martin-that uses up all of our money or going with 3 guys like Backes, Okposo, and martin? I would do the later. Gives us more depth, makes us a much tougher team to play against, and frees up more young F's that then could be moved for a Dman like Fowler or Shattenkirk. Think about that lineup and summer activity. We add Okposo, Backes, Martin and a true top pair Dman. Those moves which would remove guys like Nyquist and Tatar for example would make us a much better team.