Richdg

Same is true the other way. if Hartnell or Umburger retire those teams get hit with the cap penalty. Just that hartenll and umburger bring things to the table that franzen doesn't things like heart, effort, toughness and btw scoring. Franzen brings............................ Both of these guys are younger, healthier, and have shorter contracts. Both would have been good moves for us straight up.

Ditto. Now the summer isn't over. There is still plenty of time to make moves-not that I am expecting any. But if we get to Sep 1 and we have basicly the same roster as last year minus Bert, leg, and sammy, I am going to be pissed. As I posted above, we are already looking at ANOTHER season of 200+ man games lost due to injury, and we are not even to training camp yet. The thing that scares me the most is others are getting to the age were they will start to play fewer games do to injury. Guys like Kronwall, Ericsson, and Howard, who I haven't even added into the 200 game number.

2 years ago when I first joined this fine forum I talked about we need to pick up O'Reilly during his holdout. Most thought I was crazy and that he wasn't worth it. Now everyone agrees he is a great player. Just think, we could have drafted him instead of Ferrero.......LOL 1 pick later....... Those that think a bunch of our old always injured forwards are going to score a bunch of goals are smoking some good sh!t! Please pass it around! Datsyuk, Z, Weiss, Franzen, helm, now Alfie again, can't stay healthy. That is going to make it tough for them to score a bunch of goals. As of today-still June so things can still change, we are going to struggle offensively in the 14/15 season scoring. Injuries will happen. All those rookies that played so well last year are heading to the dreaded soph. season. There will be struggles. Which ones and how much? No idea. But just becasue player X score Y in half a season don't bet on it doubling by playing the whole year. If Sheahan and Jurco can both get to 75 games played and 15 G each, I will be happy. If tatar gets to 20 that is good. Same with Nyquist. The other teams have seen them and they will game plan for them now.

For three years now we have been ravaged by injuries. So what is our answer? Bring back more of the same old broken down players that just don't have it any more and expect different results. Before the puck even drops we already have 100 man games lost to injuries. The combo of datsyuk, Z, Alfie, Franzen, Helm, and Alfie once it is official will combine to miss 100 games. At some point the GM needs to be held accountable for the injuries due to the fact he is the one bringing in broken down bodies. if Cleary returns there is another 20+ man games lost. That is before any of the other players get hurt which of course some will. So here we are on June 24th and we can expect another 200 man games lost do to injury and we are not even to training camp yet. Great times to be a Red Wing Fan! Maybe a name change is in order. The Red Cross Wings..........

I would have taken either of these guys for Franzen in a heartbeat! Holland you asleep again? These are the type of guys that we need more off. Big rugged players that will score 20 goals or so per year while being tough to play against.

Not going to defend/attack Holland here, but what do you expect a writer to say? All he was giving is HIS opinion. Not Hollands. Ken is not going to go out and have a press conference and tell the world: I am going to trade from players x, y, and z. that only gives everyone else a chance to act and steal his targets/drive up the price, and make the RW's pay. Holland, Babcock, and indirectly Zetterberg and Datsyuk have all said that we need more top end talent. KH himself mentioned a top 6 forward and a top 4 RHed Dman. Now if we get to Sep 1 and those have not been picked up, then by all means time to flame Holland and I will lead the way. But we are not even to July 1 yet. Lets give things another 60 days, then we can jump off of bridges etc......

How good of a skater was Hull? Homer? Pulk can skate better than either of them. he also shoots and scores, something we can use more of. Now that does not mean I wouldn't move him in the right deal, because I would. Anyone can be traded if the deal is right.

One thing this story didn't cover is how much value prospects have in trade. In the cap era CHEAP young talent is gold. Prospects have great value, even though most never turn out. using the LAK as an example, yes they have drafted and developed well, but they have also traded well and sign key UFA's. Half of their team was not drafted by the Kings: Carter, Richards, Williams, gaborik (spelling), Greene, Mitchell, Muzzin, etc... were all picked up via trade and UFA signings-mostly trade. Yes their big name younger stars were all drafted: Kopitar, Doughtry, Quick, etc... Several of which were top 10 picks in their respective years. Point is, there is no one way to build a team. You need to use all avenues to build a winner.

DD, go back and read what I am/was talking about. We are talking about what we can use to make trades. On our team at this moument in time, Helm and Glendening are redundant. Both are 4th line C's if everyone is healthy. Our current C depth is: Datsyuk 1, Weiss 2, Sheahan 3, Helm/Glendening 4. We don't need both of them. We need other pieces for the top 6 or a top 4 Dman. You have to give something to get those type of players. Which has more value? helm does. They are both very good defensively, neither scores much, both are sub 50% FO guys. helm is also injury prone. In another year he is going to be up for a new contract. Best guess is going to be 3 million per year. On the flip side Glendening is already signed for 3 more seasons at .65 million per. if Helm, tatar, and Kindl can get you a yandle or a kesler, we are a much better team. if you swap out helm for Glendening, we don't have enough value for either. In the end, that is the point.

no one said that. I said they are the same player, which they are. Both a small fast checking line C's. I said very clearly that I trade Helm because he has MORE value. read before you type.

You realize you just talked yourself out of making any trades. To get you have to give. Other teams are not going to trade us quality players for our crap. Now, where do we have extra bodies? I keep one of Helm and Glendening-they are the same guy. Helm would be who i move because he has more trade value. Andersson can be moved but he is a throw in piece. Tatar, Pulkinnen, Nyquist are all very similar in skill and value. 1 maybe 2 of them can be moved in the right deals. That means we have Helm, say tatar, Pulkinnen, Andersson, Ferraro, Kindl, and Almqvist to make 1 or 2 deals with.

we have been rumored to be after Yandle for years. If I could get him for Tatar, Helm and Kindl-done deal! The rest we should keep or use in better deals.

Yes, kinda. After this (14/15) season he would have to pass through waivers to go down to GR. part of the new CBA. Only 3 years of protection now. First you are assuming that Mrasek beats him out anytime soon. Then there is Howard's NTC and how much value would a player have that gets beat out? Not much. Best beat, Howard returns to his top 5-10 in the NHL form and we are all set for 4 more years.

With draft week finally here, the GM's will gather. Now we shall see if Holland has any magic left. Does he find a top pair Dman? A top 6 Big F. He has said that is the goal. So Ken we will take you at your word. Go do it! Last thing I want to hear is: "we kicked the tires, made a lot of calls, talked to a lot of other teams, but couldn't make it work". There are plenty of teams that need other things as well. The Yotes need scoring. They have a ton of Dmen. The Sens need to reduce payroll-Spezza and Ryan could be in play, Kesler still wants out of van and they need a C plus. Those are teams right off of the top of my head that i can see potential trades with. Get it done Ken! Or retire.

So-and this is why I don't put much weight in the advanced stats, franzen is better, then why does Richards have more points? They are = in regular season goals, Richards is much better in PO goals, and I don't care how you slice it, Richards doesn't play with guys as good as Datsyuk and Z, which those stats claim. Again, I think both of these guys suck. The difference is the Rangers realized their mistake and corrected it. We did not. Can't wait for the next season to prove the point once again that franzen sucks. I will put the +/- at 60 for games played, 16 for goals scored, 1 for concussions.

dark, read before you post. Howard had a better save % and GAA than Gus in the PO's. Howard finished 3rd among all G's in the playoffs with a .931 save %. Only mason and jones were better. In GAA Howard finished 4th behind jones, mason and rask. Howard was not nor is he our problem. His health first half of the year was an issue.

Yes. Now can we figure out how to get Franzen to play his wing with the Ducks?????

Kip, I agree with your question about identity. Who are the RW? We have neither the skill/speed to play a puck control system, nor the size/toughness to bang away. Either system works btw IF you have the players for it. if we look back over the past 20 years we see both systems/styles winning. The Devils won 3 cups and made a fourth with almost no offense. Played great D and had a great G. we won with both systems. The 95-02 teas was not a puck possession team. it was both. yes the Russian 5 played great possession, but the rest played far more dump/chase and very physical. So who are we, and maybe more important, which fits us better long term? I think the size/toughness model works better long term. Yes we have some great possessors of the puck, but most of them are old: Datsyuk Z, and Kronwall. Only nyquist is young. On the flip side we have Abby, Sheahan, Jurco, Mantha on the way, Nastasiak, Athenisou (spelling), McKee, and the young Dmen, all with good speed and size. if Tuch is our pick next weekend, add another 6-4/225 RW to the mix. That is 8 forwards that are all 6-2/210+. Plus the D: Dekeyser, Smith, Oullett, Sproul, Marchenko, DeHaas, etc..... all again are 6-2/200+. of course we have no idea who turns out,but we seem to be geared better long term to get bigger.

If you are a follower of advanced stats-which I admit I am not the biggest fan of, Richards 7.9 had a BETTER (HarD ranking) in 5 on 5 play, this year than franzen. So once again, sorry Richards is the better player. But again, neither are very good. So to review, Richards is younger, healthier, scores more goals, gets more assists, plays better defense (considering he was a 1C playing on a top line vs other teams best), and isn't a flake.

16/17 goals is not that hard to replace. If there was no Franzen we would have 15/16 million in cap space to find replacements. That is more than enough to bring in 2 big time contracts/players. be it as UFA's or via trades. Yes you give up prospects, so what? 2 out of 3 fail to turn into anything. What did we give up to get Shanahan again? A 25 year old C that played a 200ft game and was coming off of a 26 goal season.

Another circular arguement. Fun times! Neither is a great player and maybe never were. But and this is key, both have long bad contracts. One team realized this and bought out their crap the other didn't. Now when comparing the 2 in terms of numbers it is taking a trip down the over rated road. But lets..... Richards just turn 34 a couple of months ago and Franzen turns 35 in a couple of months. They are 8 months apart in age, with Franzen being older. Franzen has had at least 3 concussions in the NHL and a couple of other major injuries along the way, Richards hasn't. Over the past 3 seasons Richards missed a total of 2 regular season games. For their careers Richards scores .88 points per game, Franzen scores .61 ppg. Now over the last 3 years Richards numbers have dropped to .72 ppg, but those numbers are still better than Franzen's. Yes some of that is the fact Richards is a C and get s a lot of assists, while Franzen is a winger and supposed to score goals. On that front though they are very close. Richards has scored 56 regular season goals and 12 post season goals over the past 3 years while Franzen has scored 59 in the past 3 regular seasons and 5 in the past 3 post seasons. Now I am no fan of richards, nor do I want him here. Lets be very clear about that. In each case we have declining players that are signed long term. Both should have been bought out. That is the point.

You and others defending Franzen/keeping him are making circular arguements. "we can't buy him out because we don't have anyone better". That is BS. After the Rags bought out Richards who out performed Franzen this year in every way, your point holds less water. Richards is younger, doesn't have a concussion history, played more games, scored more goals, had more points, and yet the Rags REALIZED their mistake and bought him out. Why? Because they knew this was their best chance to get out from under his bad contract. They now have a roster spot open and cap room to go out and get better players. I know it is pretty complicated. Cut the crap and bring in better players. Wonder why our GM can't seem to figure this out.

So let me see if I got this correct. The rags buyout Richards. He is younger than Franzen, scored more goals this past year for Franzen, plys better D than Franzen, plays n more games than franzen, and had an equally long and bad contact. But we can't buyout Franzen? Please try to support that now! can't be done. This is what buyouts are to be used for, not TooToo.

With the Isles picking up Boyle, they are showing a need that they want to fill-puck mover on the BL. We have a couple of those young types that are expendable: Kindl and Almqvist. There is a move in there somewhere....... Kindl and Almqvist to the Isles for Matt Martin. I like it!

A week to go. Do we keep the pick? If so, yes Tuch, Kempe, Larkin, and a couple others makes great sense in the first. If we trade it, trade all the picks! LOL Then we can move onto the 2015 draft which is a much better draft with far more to talk about.