eva unit zero

He wasn't the "checking line" center last year. He was the third line center but he played top six minutes and often played the Wing with Datsyuk or Zetterberg. The checking line center was Zetterberg. His primary purpose all season was to shut down the opposing team's top lines. That's part of why I say he deserved the Selke so much more than Datsyuk; because Z was the one who was doing all the major defensive work for the Wings. Flip was playing on a line which had more of an offensive role at even strength most of the time, hence his even strength scoring numbers. Flip probably will serve as the checking line this season. However, if Dats and Z are put back together, he'll also likely play with Franzen. Flip will also probably play on the PP. So look for an increase in points despite his shift from primarily playing offense to defense at even strength.

As much as everyone loves posting the Helm PK video...I think Helm is well down the list of guys as far as who will be on the PK. I think the top four are Z, Dats, Flip, and Cleary. Spares start with Franzen and Draper, and then you get to Eaves, Helm, and Maltby.' For the PP, Williams will get a shot at the point. If that doesn't work out quite right, they'll try Stuart, Ericsson, and Lebda and/or Meech if they're around. They'll try Bertuzzi, Filppula, Cleary, Williams and perhaps even Eaves will get a shot at the PP up front on the second unit. I can totally see a second PP unit of Franzen/Filppula/Williams/Kronwall/Meech. I see Flip because he's the best playmaker of the group by far up front and one of only two centers. Williams because he's got good speed and like Franzen has a shot which can be dangerous from most places in the offensive zone. As far as defensemen, I picked who I did because Kronwall has a better point shot than Williams in terms of power+decision making, and the opposing point should see a playmaking defenseman with good mobility, i.e. Meech or Lebda. I would prefer to see Meech in the lineup over Lebda because I think he is a better overall player, but I think it will be Lebda and would put Lebda where I have slotted Meech as they are very similar players.

Oooh, do I get to gloat like this about Kopecky if/when he becomes a 20-goal scorer?

Congrats on getting the Mason auto. I still think he's lucky to get the awards he did...he wasn't even the best rookie goalie IMHO.

If Zetterberg is allowed to play offense-first for a full season and the Wings have another line play as the shut-down line, then Z will definitely score 40 and could score 50. That's regardless of whether he's with Datsyuk. If the Wings go with something like Franzen/Zetterberg/Leino Holmstrom/Datsyuk/Williams Cleary/Filppula/Eaves Helm/Draper/Bertuzzi Maltby Then Zetterberg will be playing with another scorer as well as a skilled playmaker to provide a defensively capable line that has quite a bit of offensive skill. Datsyuk is with Homer and Williams, providing one excellent playmaker and one decent playmaker, both with wicked shots, as well as a great screen, and good defense from this line. Yes, this lineup has Bertuzzi on the fourth line, but that is to allow Eaves to play on the 3rd line, which can serve primarily as a shutdown line or to rotate players and turn into a scoring line or an energy line if necessary. Eaves, Helm, and Bert can rotate for the desired lineup for the immediate purpose. This lineup also would see Williams and Bert probably both posting similar numbers to last season if not better. Assuming of course that Z and D are split up. Past that of course, there's the lines I've been posting, with slight modification Dats/Zata/Homer Franzen/Filppula/Cleary Leino/Williams/Bertuzzi Helm/Draper/Eaves Maltby In this case, it's still the Filppula/Cleary line which is serving as the shutdown line...however it is listed as the second line meaning it is probably getting more ice time and serving in more of a two-way role. Which makes sense, given the fact that Eaves has been swapped out for Franzen. Zata and Dats are together on an offense-first line, which means Zetterberg probably hits 50 goals and may even approach or clear 60 if both players stay healthy, regardless of whether Homer is the primary RW on the line. The third line obviously is going to be relied on for much more of an offensive role than in the other lineup, as Leino is the closest player to defensively able of the group, but all have offensive skill, with Williams bringing the most versatile offensive talents and the best speed.

You can forgive. But the Bible doesn't say that you have to, instead of holding a grudge against a person for something they have done to you, turn around and become their BFF. Or, in the case of a hockey player, to forgive and then to make them one of your favorite players when previously you could not stand them. Forgiveness, as said by Jesus, means nothing more than not holding a grudge. To elaborate further; I do not hold a grudge against Todd Bertuzzi for his actions. I think his actions were wrong and I think they were intentional, but I do not hold a grudge against him for them. However, he still is a player I do not and never have liked, and I wish he had not been signed by the Wings. I wish they had signed Taylor Pyatt or Mike Peca instead. In other words...the Bible doesn't say "Bertuzzi f***ed up, forgive him for it and deal with it, go buy a Bertuzzi jersey and root him on."

So if Hudler's GF left him because he wasn't ready for kids, and THEN Hudler went and got himself some hookers...does this all go away as news?

Enough opportunities? A top-two line level scorer who never got to play on those lines had enough opportunities? You really think so? Hudler finished 8th in ice time among forwards but 5th in scoring. He finished 7th in even strength points and 8th in even strength ice time. He finished 3rd in both PP points and ice time. Hudler was offensively prolific at even strength despite playing with linemates who weren't. He was far more prolific on the power play when he had linemates who were offensively capable. Babcock still didn't seem to recognize the idea that perhaps he should try Hudler on a higher line and then he would see much greater results on the scoresheet from Hudler.

Williams. He'll get consistent PP time unlike the others, and will probably be on the same line as Leino most of the time so they will be sharing points a lot of the time. Eaves and Helm will see fourth line duty with Draper and will be playing more defensively.

This is spun off of the Toews thread to provide a separate thread to discuss defensemen in. Re-posting my top-15 post: How I would rank the NHL's top 15 defensemen, based on last season, is: 1) Lidstrom 2) Keith 3) Chara 4) Niedermayer 5) Weber 6) Boyle 7) Zubov 8) Markov 9) Bouwmeester 10) Wideman 11) Phaneuf 12) Green 13) Pronger 14) Rafalski 15) Kaberle The thing is, Keith is an extremely solid defensive defenseman with offensive skill, and he has a physical game. Admittedly, he's not perfect, but IMHO he outplayed the rest of these guys (sans Nick) and most of these guys either have yet to reach the level Keith displayed or have been below it and declining for years now. A healthy Zubov, Niedermayer, or Pronger who was in prime form would have beaten Keith out. Chara is the only defenseman on the list who really challenged Keith for the second slot, and his tendency to just happen to pick up points when he did very little to actually produce the offensive play was a disadvantage when compared to Keith, who is a major factor in a lot of Chicago's offensive rushes and their power play setup. Chara is an excellent defensive defenseman, but he's not that much better defensively than Keith to offset the offensive advantage that Keith holds.

Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Franzen/Filppula/Cleary Leino/Williams/Bertuzzi Helm/Draper/Eaves Maltby Those are the most likely lines. Possible swaps include Leino/Cleary, Williams/Cleary (Leino moves to C), Bertuzzi/Cleary, Bertuzzi/Eaves, and Bertuzzi/Helm (Helm moves to C).

Why would a healthy Doughty or Johnson affect Quincey? COLORADO AVALANCHE defenseman Kyle Quincey will probably be playing with Scott Hannan, so why wouldn't he be able to reproduce his results from last season?

For the record GST, these sort of lists are all opinion. Some people like to let what other people think decide how they rank their top few, and then just use stats to decide the rest. Others actually watch players and decide based on that. And even after that, not everybody thinks the same things have the same importance. My comment about the list having problems was more about the list, which was clearly based primarily on offense, ranking dmen whose only ability was offense above defensemen who have shown that they are similarly capable offensively and also have other skills. It was not so much an "I disagree with your list" a statement questioning what made certain defensemen better than others, and justified their position on the list. This has been asked about my list, and I have responded with logical analysis about it. If I'm the only one willing to defend what I post, so be it.

Hudler was signed for under $3m. Hudler's cap hit is the same as Bertuzzi or Williams, plus Eaves and Maltby.

If Lilja becomes healthy before the season starts, and the Wings plan on keeping all six of Lidstrom/Rafalski/Kronwall/Stuart/Ericsson/Lilja and only retaining one of Lebda or Meech, they would most likely drop Lebda and his $650k. That means the Wings would still be $320k over the cap with 13-7-2. At that point, the Wings can make it under the cap by sending Helm, Leino, or Maltby to Grand Rapids. If Maltby is chosen, yes he would have to clear waivers. But Maltby being sent down means the Wings can still afford to have a 13th forward from the group of Oulahen, McGrath, Newbury, and Jeremy Williams; who have to clear waivers to go to the AHL themselves. In other words, Bertuzzi for $1.5m was too much; his deal should have been for $1.1m or less. Then a Lebda trade clears enough space if Lilja is healthy.

I'd have rather seen Taylor Pyatt or Mike Peca than Bertuzzi honestly. I think both would have been better fits for the Wings' playing style and bring just as much or more grit and physical play as well. At $1.5m, Bertuzzi puts us about $970k over the cap with 13 forwards, 8 defensemen, and 2 goaltenders. This is before assuming that Andreas Lilja will miss the entire season due to his concussion issues. Without Lilja, the Wings have about $279k available with a roster of 13 forwards, 7 defensemen, and 2 goaltenders. The Wings also likely will lose one or more of Ryan Oulahen and Evan McGrath on waivers if they aren't traded first.

He played his way down to 4th line minutes? Hudler played 9 games at 4th line minutes, 4 of which were in the finals. He also scored 1-2-3 and was +2 in those games, with a team record of 6-3. In games where he was "3rd line" mins, he played 10 games and was 2-5-7 and +4, with a team record of 6-4. In games where he was "2nd line" mins, he played 3 games and was 0-1-1 and -1, with a team record of 1-2. In games where he was "1st line" mins, he played 2 games and was 1-0-1 and -1, with a team record of 2-0. So his production did drop the few rare times played more minutes...but that is just as attributable to a lack of chemistry with his linemates, as in 19 games on the bottom-two lines he scored 3-7-10 and was +6 while he was 1-1-2 and -2 in 5 games on the top two lines, but obviously was not used to playing with those particular players. As he was primarily a 3rd liner, his total of 12 points in 23 games with a +4 can hardly be considered "not contributing" and he scored 3 points and was +2 in 7 games against Pittsburgh. That's better numbers than Franzen, Cleary, Filppula, Samuelsson, Holmstrom, or Hossa posted in the finals. Of the Wings' typical top 9 forwards, only Zetterberg and Datsyuk had a better Finals series than Hudler, and Dats was injured for half of it. Calling Hudler out as a choker for the way he finished this past playoff is a joke.

Moore's hit, if called a cheap shot, is as close to legal as a cheap shot gets. Of all plays since I have been alive, Bert's attack on Moore is the one that was intended to cause severe injury more than any other. Bert intended to at the very least put Moore out for the same time Naslund was out. He didn't intend to end his career...but injury WAS the intent and looking at the action you can't say he wasn't trying to cause severe injury. Other situations that have caused major injury are typically simply normal plays that happen in awkward situations where a player will cross check or slash another player as happens all the time, and due to positioning or something, the receiving player is severely injured. Such as Lemieux on Draper or Samuelsson on Neely. In neither situation were they trying to cause severe harm to the other player. Yes, both times it was a dirty cross check. Neither time was it one player trying to ruin another player's career or to severely injure him. Bertuzzi felt remorseful after his actions, but given the way he relentlessly pursued Moore and then viciously assaulted him, it's hard to argue that he was not trying to cause severe injury to Steve Moore.

If you can quote where I ever said Hudler would definitely be on the Wings roster then congrats. Otherwise, eat s*** because you are slamming me for things I never posted.

The primary contact is with the hip. While Moore does get his elbow up, he's throwing a (basically) legal hip check and Naslund FELL into the check. If Naslund stays on his feet until Moore hits him, he's not injured at all. The problem here is that Moore is being accused of TRYING to hurt Naslund when in reality, he was not. He was throwing the kind of hit that gets thrown 10 times every game. Kronwall's hit that destroyed Havlat was less legal than that.

I adjusted Pavel's stats to fit Jiri's ice time, actually. But as they played very similar minutes at even strength(even though Pavs missed 18 games and Jiri missed none) the adjustment wasn't much, and on the PP Pavel got a 9-point increase from the time difference. My point was that the offensive production per minute at the same age was very similar, even though Datsyuk was playing with far more offensively capable players in Hull and Zetterberg. It sort of throws out the idea that Hudler isn't good enough to play on the second line as Dats was playing on the second line at the time on a team that was arguably as deep or even deeper than the Wings were at forward last season.

Bulls***. For one, Moore hit Naslund legally, and Naslund was injured as he fell awkwardly. You can go on and on about it being a cheap shot but it was a legal hit and was ruled as such by the league. Furthermore, in the game Bertuzzi hunted Moore down and assaulted him in, Moore had already fought Matt Cooke to a draw regarding the Naslund incident. The Bertuzzi incident is one of the few incidents in NHL history where a fight, ONE fight, was not acceptable 'payback' for a cheap shot, or even injuring someone on a legal hit. Bertuzzi assaulted Moore without any justification, and there is no acceptable defense for his actions nor should anyone even try to justify them. And honestly, which action is truly worse? 1) Heading to the bench at the end of your shift (Moore had been on the ice for more than 30 seconds) when you have spent the entire shift being challenged to a fight over an incident that happened two games ago as far as the season series between your two teams is concerned, even though you have already fought another member of this player's team over the same incident in the same game. 2) Spending an entire shift following a guy around the ice and then when he doesn't react and fight you, grabbing him by the back of the head and driving him face-first into the ice, breaking his neck in several places and ending his professional hockey career. I know what is worse, and it's not option 1.

Just to kick people in the teeth for a second over the "Hudler wasn't good enough to be a second line forward because he was a slow skater/was bad defensively": Had Datsyuk played the same total minutes at ES, PP, and SH at the same age (Started the season at 24, so 2002-2003 season) Hudler was this past season, he would have scored about 62 points to Jiri's 57. At the time, Datsyuk was notably worse defensively than Hudler is now. He was a better skater, marginally, than Hudler is now. And he was playing on the second line with Henrik Zetterberg and Brett Hull. Hudler had far worse linemates than Datsyuk did at the same age yet produced similarly offensively per minute. Datsyuk was leading the Wings in scoring two years later and was among the better centers in the NHL. Hudler's scouting reports when he was drafted said that if he could get beyond his small size and slow skating, he had the talent to be a top notch center. His season last year, especially considering his much improved skating and defensive game, shows progression along that line. It's quite possible that Hudler will be a top notch forward in two years if you project his development along the same lines that Datsyuk's followed as they are fairly similar players.

I have to say two simple things, and line suggestions with Bert. 1) I don't like the idea of Bertuzzi coming back. For what he brings, I think there are options out there who are cheaper, younger, and healthier. Plus I just generally don't like Bertuzzi as a Wing. 2) With the 12 forwards and 8 defensemen the Wings have signed, including Lilja, have about $529k in available cap space. The Wings would have to be under the cap by the start of the season, and Holland intends to trade a defenseman by then. It will most likely be Brett Lebda or Derek Meech. As the two are very close in talent level and style, it will most likely be Lebda as he costs considerably more. This would leave about $1.179m in cap space. If Lilja is on LTIR, then neither is traded and the Wings have Lilja's cap relief to work with temporarily. Who here thinks Bertuzzi signs a contract with Detroit for close to the league minimum? I don't see that happening...he could probably get twice that from at least a couple of other teams that have solid playoff chances without him. Teams like Pittsburgh or Washington would probably give him better than $1m. As far as lines if he DOES sign in Detroit... Forwards Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Franzen/Filppula/Leino Cleary/Williams/Bertuzzi Helm/Draper/Eaves Maltby Defense (Healthy Lilja) Lidstrom/Rafalski Kronwall/Stuart Ericsson/Lilja Meech Defense (LTIR Lilja) Lidstrom/Rafalski Kronwall/Stuart Ericsson/Lebda or Meech Lebda or Meech

I would have thought Van Ryan would have just left for the KHL, solving the "I need to trade a defenseman" problem, given his history of making a commitment and then jumping ship for another team/league that would better suit him personally.