eva unit zero

Someone give me a fire extinguisher, quick.

Far too based on offense IMHO, with some players ranked well below where they belong even though they performed well offensively. Questionable ranks: Sheldon Souray #12 Ed Jovanovski #15 Bryan McCabe #32 Robyn Regehr #37 I wonder how you ranked any of those defensemen so highly. I understand they all have quite a bit of hype around them, but none are terribly effective defensively and both Jovo and Regehr posted offensive numbers well below those ranks. McCabe and Souray rank slightly higher than that, but as two of the most one-dimensional defensemen in the league they can't simply hold onto that spot based on offense alone. I'm not even going to get into the other problems I see with your list based on players who are completely one-dimensional being ranked too high, and defensemen who are strong in both ends being ranked far too low. For example, I wouldn't blame anyone for considering Duncan Keith, Shea Weber, or Sergei Zubov outside the top three or four. But outside the top ten is very questionable for any of those three, especially when Green is in the top ten, and a guy like Gonchar who is no better offensively and not nearly as good defensively is ranked well above them. Most of the top 30 I would agree with, although not necessarily in the same order obviously.

You know, other than the three starter-level goaltenders they have on the roster. Oh and, BTW, if they end up trading a goalie, it will be Roloson as he costs more than Biron, is not as happy with being a backup/tandem goalie, is older, and is not as good. Yes, he'll bring less in return, but with Dipietro's injury issues the Isles would need to keep the best second option around even if Dipietro were healthy for now.

Honestly, I have generally not really thought there is a stat that really reflects defensive ability. The fact that Green and Markov are among the leaders in both gives and takes shows this quite well. But I have always considered giveaways to be much more reflective of offensive defensemen whose passes do not connect from being off target, or from the recipient simply not doing what he was supposed to and therefore not being where he was supposed to be. Takeaways are often credited to players who pick up a puck that was simply mishandled and lost by an opposing puck carrier. Takes are also often credited when players attempt to pass into or through a crowded area and the pass is intercepted. So while actually giving up the puck or taking it away is quite important, the STATISTIC is far from representative of those abilities and does not reflect defensive ability.

I was listening towatching Channel 4 this morning and they had both Mark Howe and Glenn Merkosky on, and they both confirmed the Wings were very close to a deal to trade spare parts Brett Lebda and Kirk Maltby to Edmonton for one of RW Jordan Eberle or C Riley Nash, both of whom are considered high-end prospects.

If Fisch was still around...he'd be one of the ten best defensemen in the league. He was developing into an unbelievably complete defenseman; he was an amazing skater with a ridiculous shot, a good passer and very solid defensively. His offense was improving every day and his defensive positioning was getting to the point where by now he would be one of the five best defensive defensemen in the league, as well as a high scoring d-man.

Given that one of his other clients mentioned was also a murder-for-hire plot who is appealing, assumedly based on a guilty plea, and that this guy seems to be more concerned with not being found out than the welfare of his actual "client"...it makes you wonder if Danton wasn't simply told by his "lawyer" to plead guilty to receive a shorter sentence than if convicted, regardless of whether he would have actually been convicted or even was guilty.

The difference is, despite being a quick skating defenseman Green often comes back to his own zone after his forwards and is not terribly good at preventing scoring chances, while Markov is quite often the first man back on a team with quick forwards and is a reliable defenseman as far as breaking up a passing play, tying up an opposing player/his stick, or things like that. Again, if giveaways or giveaway/takeaway ratio were the only measure of defense, Chara would be considered well below average defensively and he's clearly not. Or, to make my point in a shorter statement... If you were to use stats to determine who the best defensive defensemen were...Markov was third in takeaways. The Rangers' Paul Mara played 76 games while only giving up the puck 13 times with 10 takeaways. Only Bryan Rodney of Carolina (0 in 8 games) , Nathan McIver of Anaheim (1 in 18GP), and Mike Lundin of Tampa Bay (4 in 25) had a better giveaways per game ratio of any defenseman who played more than five games in the NHL last season. Does that mean that Paul Mara, a defenseman typically considered average defensively, is the best defensive defenseman in the league? I certainly don't think he is.

The latest info I have is that he's been playing on a checking line and doing fairly well in that role, although his scoring numbers obviously are not what we would be used to seeing. I have heard he is in better shape though. So at least seeing him in camp would be nice to see how he stacks up against real NHL-level competition would be nice.

The list is based on both stats and having watched the players play. Despite the stereotype people like to hit me with around here, I am not a robot and don't do everything based on stats. For example, Pronger posted the best numbers of any Anaheim defenseman in the playoffs, but having watched most of Anaheim's games, I felt that Niedermayer outplayed him considerably and that despite the difference in scoring numbers, Ryan Whitney was just as good overall. Speaking of Anaheim defensemen from last season, I feel they had one of, if not the most overrated player in the NHL in Francois Beauchemin. People seem to always talk about Beauchemin as if he's some great defensemen and a future Norris contender. The best I've ever seen out of him in his career, a guy who's 29 now, is the kind of play you would expect from an average second pairing defenseman. Whitney (26) and James Wisniewski (25), OTOH, are considerably underrated, so I suppose it worked out. Furthermore, while Keith may not have put up the numbers in the postseason, he played extremely impressive defense. Anaheim had a handful of decent defensive defensemen and several defensively dedicated forwards, as well as a very good goalie who was extremely hot. Chicago had primarily offensive defensemen who were at best average defenseively; Seabrook and Walker perhaps being the only guys who could really play better than average in their own end, and Chicago was particularly lacking in defensively skilled forwards past a couple of guys, more than half of whom were also necessary for their offensive performance. Their goaltender was solid until injury took him out late in the Detroit series. As far as my list goes, maybe I'll post it later. But here are a few interesting players on it that I am sure will provoke debate and/or draw ire, as far as where players are ranked among their position: F Henrik Zetterberg #1 F Alexander Ovechkin #2 F Pavel Datsyuk #3 F Evgeni Malkin #4 F Ryan Getzlaf #5 F Sidney Crosby #6 F Marian Hossa #9 F Tim Connolly #19 F Vincent Lecavalier #25 F Sergei Fedorov #31 F Jonathan Toews #38 F Jiri Hudler #68 F Valtteri Filppula #69 D Brian Campbell #21 D Pavel Kubina #23 D Tom Gilbert #30 D Alexander Edler #32 D Mattias Ohlund #33 D Wade Redden #37 D Mike Komisarek #50 D Brad Stuart #56 D Robyn Regehr #64 D Ed Jovanovski #91 D Francois Beauchemin #102 G Pekka Rinne #9 G Steve Mason #10 G Evgeni Nabokov #12 G Rick Dipietro #16 G Craig Anderson #17 G Scott Clemmensen #18 G Joey MacDonald #30 G Miikka Kiprusoff #42

I'd love to see Igor in camp in great shape so he can regain his honor and prove himself to the staff, but I doubt it happens.

I can speak from first person experience. Trying to get back into the kind of playing shape you were in before is difficult when you suffer a major injury. When I was 14, in my freshman year of high school, I could press over 1000 lbs on the military press. For those unfamiliar, this is a leg exercise where you lay on your back and extend your legs completely, then bring them to your chest. Effectively a reverse squat. This was considered impressive by the gym teacher and the varsity football players I worked out with as I only weighed 107 lbs at the time. Unfortunately, I experienced a severe leg injury myself; despite being a small guy I played many sports. I was playing football and ended up on the bottom of a pile in a bad position. My right leg (dominant leg) was snapped through the tibia and fibula, as well as cracked through the growth plate. Several ankle bones were also cracked, some in multiple places; enough to use the term 'shattered' when referring to my ankle. It took me several months to even be able to walk again, and this was with severely reduced strength while using an "aircast", which is basically an inflatable ankle support device. I was unable to play most of the sports I had played at anywhere near my previous level for quite some time. Some I have regained my level at or improved at through training in technique, as my technique was raw in many areas of sport (obviously, I WAS a HS freshman) but my running speed did not match that level until I hit a growth spurt later on and simply had enough muscle in the area to provide that kind of power from that side. I was also very lucky that such a severe injury healed as well as it did; I still sometimes feel uncomfortable in the area when exercising or participating in athletic activity. I can only imagine what Grigorenko went through, with a much more severe injury and allowing less time to return to highly competetive sport; therefore much less time to heal. I can imagine that he may be able to build muscle in the area and slightly improve his skating speed, but the increase would be minimal. Yes, he probably could have worked harder and been in better shape at camp. But at the same time, it's debatable whether that would have actually placed him on the roster. Honestly, I wouldn't mind the Wings sending Hakan and/or Datsyuk to see if he has changed his ways/talk to him about working hard and giving him an invite to camp either this year or next; he's only 26 right now and if he can or has learned the hard work thing, another invite to camp might not be a bad idea because if he can show up and prove he belongs on the roster where he FELT he belonged in the first place. If that can happen, he'd be a heck of a lot better reclamation project than Eaves.

To be fair about Grigorenko, he was considered the next Russian superstar winger with crazy speed, great hitting game, strength, and a wicked shot (think Ovechkin-esque domination of every league he had played in) and then the guy had an auto accident that shattered his leg and nearly killed him due to complications that arose from it, and the fact that he was even able to play hockey again (let alone only missing one season) was remarkable in itself. He spent years in Russia playing before he came over and was not the player he was expected to be, primarily due to his lack of speed. Due to his leg injury he had gone from a guy with blazing speed to one of the slowest players on the ice; this caused severe issues with the rest of his game. Grigorenko did not make the Wings' roster when he came over, and did not stay in Grand Rapids because there was no 'development' for him to achieve. He was not going to increase his speed and his other talents were already developed to the NHL level. So after playing a couple of unmotivated games in Grand Rapids, he left for Russia as it was unlikely someone with his speed deficiency would be given a spot on an NHL roster. Had the accident never occurred, Grigorenko might be a 40-goal, 80-point forward in the NHL right now with his speed and shot; he was supposed to be coming over to camp the next season after the accident occurred, and likely would have made the roster. Leino can work on his deficiencies because he doesn't have any physical setbacks that prevent him from improving any areas of his game. Grigorenko couldn't get faster because his leg had been shattered. Leino can improve his technique and add muscle and get faster. Grigorenko had technique and muscle; he simply couldn't apply the technique properly due to the injured leg. Think of Steve Yzerman early in his career when he was so unbelievably fast. Then he suffered a major knee injury. He returned from it, and was never quite as fast. Later in his career, he suffered a couple more leg injuries that permanently reduced his speed. All of Yzerman's injuries combined were not as severe as what happened to Grigorenko. It's not like he could have just been the same rocket after recovery with some hard work.

Yeah, but if we were going only based on stats, eg, I should have put Wideman ahead of Chara. A player's ability can affect his stats, but so can things such as how much he played, who he played with, and who he played against. As far as Streit, he's actually the next guy on my list after Kaberle, followed by Gonchar, Blake, Kronwall, and Visnovsky to round out the top 20. Just a side note...out of the players I actually ranked based on last season, which is a list that covers about 200 forwards (anyone who scored 40 points or more, plus anyone I felt should be included that didn't score 40) 200 defensemen (The top 6 defensemen from every team in games played, plus anyone I felt should be included), and 50 goalies, the Wings last season had seven "first line" quality forwards (Z, Dats, Hossa, Mule, Huds, Flip, and Cleary) and two "second line" quality forwards (Sammy, Homer) for a total of nine "top-six" forwards. The Wings also had three "#1" defensemen (Lids, Raf, Kronner), one "#2" defensemen (Stu), two "#4" defensemen (Lils, Big Rig) for a total of six "top-four" defensemen. The team also had, as spares, one "#6" defenseman (Cheli) and two "#7" defensemen (Meech, Lebs) on their roster. And finally, the Wings had one "#1" goalie (top 25) and one of the top "2" goalies. With the changes this summer, the Wings now have 5 "first line" forwards, having lost Hossa and Hudler, and two "second line" forwards, having swapped Sammy for Williams. This means 7 'top-six' forwards on the team.

Double post.

You said that I ranked Pronger where I did because he always pushed around Hudler. Now, aside from the fact that I have posted logical reasons for why I would rank Pronger where I did, that particular statement is basically calling me a biased homer. Which I personally take as an insult; I don't know how others feel.

Is it really possible for you to post without throwing around personal insults that are completely unrelated to the topic? If not, please don't post. I would like to have a civil discussion, thank you.

If you consider Phaneuf 'vastly underrated' at #11, I wonder what your list looks like overall. He had the worst offensive season of his career, and of the guys who finished ahead of him in scoring Green and Souray are considerably worse defensively, and of the remainder it's debatable between him and Rafalski, Kronwall, Streit, and Campbell. The only players who I ranked ahead of him who finished behind him were Bouwmeester, Keith, and Zubov. All three are considerably better defensively than Phaneuf, and Zubov would have outscored him with a healthy season anyway. Had Phaneuf repeated his 60-point performance from 07-08, he might be in that 6-10 range. But he didn't. Want to know something? If you adjust the top-30 scoring defensemen to the same ES, PP, and SH time on ice as far as their goals and assists, and therefore points, the top fifteen in defense scoring looks as such: 1) Mike Green, WSH 32-44-76 2) Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 17-47-64 2) Brian Rafalski, DET 11-53-64 4) Niklas Kronwall, DET 8-54-62 5) Andrei Markov, MTL 12-49-61 6) Mark Streit, NYI 17-40-57-57 6) Dennis Wideman, BOS 15-42-57 6) Scott Niedermayer, ANA 14-43-57 6) Cam Barker, CHI 9-48-57 10) Dan Boyle, SJ 15-41-56 11) Tom Gilbert, EDM 6-48-54 12) Shea Weber, NSH 23-30-53 13) Sheldon Souray, EDM 22-30-52 14) Zdeno Chara, BOS 20-31-51 14) Duncan Keith, CHI 9-42-51 14) Kevin Bieksa, VAN 13-38-51 I adjusted to 1450 ES mins, and 325 at ES and PP; as that is approximately what the average #1 defenseman would play. It's interesting that Keith and Chara come out to the same number. Pronger, who played a ton, dropped to 44 points. Phaneuf finished last of the players adjusted, due to the fact he led all defensemen with 445 minutes played on the power play; even though he only scored 21 PP points, adjusted down to 15-again the worst number. Phaneuf, Wideman, Brian Campbell, and Weber played between 1450 and 1470 minutes at even strength, so their "adjusted" stats actually didn't get changed at even strength. Only Green (40), Rafalski, Weber, and Souray (32 each) rank ahead of Keith (31) in adjusted ES points. Campbell, who ate up all the PP time on the Hawks, adjusted out to 50 points. He also only ended up with 22 adjusted PP points compared to Keith's adjusted 19, a huge closing of the gap between them before adjustment.

If it was based simply on defensive ability, this list would look considerably different. At least a third of those guys would be gone, probably closer to half the list, and it would likely be shuffled around in order as well. Included in their place would be guys like Mattias Ohlund who don't put up a ton of points but are truly great in their own end.

Part of it in my mind, relating to guys like Pronger and Chara, is that IMHO they are both hugely overrated in regards to their defensive play. Yes, they are good defensively. But their size and physical play puts people in a state of "this guy is the best defensive defenseman I have ever seen!" when Chara or Pronger makes a big hit to break up a play instead of simply tying up a player's stick. Both of those guys make far more mistakes defensively than people acknowledge. Phaneuf is another defenseman with this sort of "advantage" in terms of perception. I don't think Phaneuf has really had a season in his NHL career where he's been that much better than average defensively. Keith is very solid defensively, even if he's less of a physical monstrosity that Chara or Pronger he, at least from what I have seen, has been very effective in his own end. He also has been much more involved in the offense than those two, which makes the fact that he was only a few points behind the two of them despite playing considerably less time on the PP due to Campbell's presence, as well as the fact that Keith finished second overall among defensemen in even-strength scoring with 32 points and played less than Pronger or Chara at ES, who scored 19 and 20 respectively. Markov, OTOH, is underrated defensively. A lot of people consider him a liability defensively when honestly, he's pretty reliable in his own end. Boyle is a bit underrated defensively as well. Of course they are all better defensively than Souray, which is what really matters.

Keith led all defensemen in even strength assists with 27 and tied for second in even strength points with 32, behind Mike Green's 34. Chara only had 20 even strength points (tied for 33rd, behind Jeff Finger's 21 and Mike Commodore's 22). Chara had 28 PP points from playing nearly four minutes per game on the PP, ranking him tied for 8th with Rafalski, Pronger, and Timonen. Pronger and Timonen played more PP time, Rafalski less. Boston's power play was run by Marc Savard, and while Chara scored a bunch of PP goals by releasing his powerful shot, he only rarely set up teammates and his PP assists are mostly secondary assists. Keith scored fewer points on the PP, primarily because Chicago's PP was run by PP specialist Brian Campbell. Keith also had 50 takeaways to 40 giveaways, while Chara had 28 takeaways to 58 giveaways. Since those stats are used so often on LGW to prove why Datsyuk is the deserving Selke winner, I figured they'd make a great point in the discussion of Keith vs Chara. Size isn't everything when it comes to defense for defensemen, you know. On the subject of Bouwmeester, I think he will do well in Calgary, and his scoring numbers should increase, but he likely won't get a Norris nomination as they won't increase enough for the point-happy voters to think "he's one of the top defensemen in the league" the way they tend to.

Discussion followed up here: http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=60394

I guess I'll put it this way. Every one of the players you mentioned, as well as Yzerman, is one of the 20 best players in history at his position. However, only a few are among the top 10 ever at their position as I would rank them. C: Yzerman, Lalonde LW: Lindsay, Kharlamov RW: Bossy, Jagr D: Fetisov, Taylor G: Hall I suppose much of my opinion on Yzerman comes from watching him his entire career and feeling that he was always an excellent defensive forward, something few offensive stars can claim and none who were as offensively prolific as Yzerman. His defensive skill is proven by his having played in a shutdown role and tons of time on the PK for his entire career. Yzerman's defense in his early career is very under-recognized due to the change in the team's defensive system under Bowman as well as Yzerman's clashing with Bowman. Yzerman also suffered a major neck injury during Bowman's first season as coach, and due to the emergence of Sergei Fedorov as a superstar Yzerman became the team's second line center on a team that began to utilize the third and fourth lines more, rolling all four lines much more equally rather than riding primarily on the top two lines. Other teams sent their top lines out to score, while the Wings expected all of their lines to play defense first and then think about scoring. Think about the quotes from Bryan Murray regarding Yzerman and the 1993 Toronto playoff series where he was playing too defensively, where Murray felt Yzerman needed to stop being so concerned with stopping the Leafs and start attacking. Later, in Game 6, Murray asked Yzerman to shadow Gilmour and he did so as well as Zetterberg shadowed Crosby in these past finals. Yzerman is perhaps one of the most underrated players in hockey, past or present, due very much to the fact that he was so incredibly skilled offensively-and recognized for it-yet was also one of the league's top defensive centers and was never recognized for it, simply because he was such a great scorer.

I doubt any other player from 1984-2006 would have seen a stretch with seven in a row and ten of 14 years on the postseason All-Star team, with six first-team selections, though. It's rare to even see that many total in a 22-year career, at ANY position.

Yeah, I mean a player who scored 50 goals in 50 games, but wasn't even the most valuable player on his LINE that season? Richard was great...but he is very overrated because of things like the 50 in 50. Beliveau ahead of Richard is correct.