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Yzerman was among the league's top scoring centers for a full decade. He also was a top Selke contender for another decade. But for the decade he was a top scorer, he was still among the league's better defensive forwards, as he was getting Selke votes every year or almost every year, and is the only player to ever post 150+ points AND gain any 1st-place Selke votes. Simply removing Gretzky and Lemieux doesn't give Yzerman more than one Ross...but it probably gives him a few Harts and a few 1st and 2nd team All-Star selections. No, you can't simply place a "What if" scenario to rank players...but it's pretty hard to compare players from other eras who didn't play against those two based on the accolades they earned against the players who did. How many Harts and Rosses did Gretzky and Lemieux win between them from 1984 to 1996? Combined, they won 12 Art Ross trophies and 8 Hart trophies in 13 seasons, with Jaromir Jagr in 1995 being the only exception for the Art Ross and Mark Messier (1990,1992), Brett Hull (1991), Sergei Fedorov (1994), and Eric Lindros (1995) being the exceptions for the Hart. The thing is...if you take away Gretzky and Lemieux, then Yzerman wins the Hart in 1989. As he would then be only two points shy of the league lead in points behind Messier in 1990 and the reigning Hart winner on a weaker team, he might very well win the Hart in 1990 as well. I guess it's like Andy Bathgate. Bathgate played RW opposite Gordie Howe and Maurice Richard, yet was still considered one of the top few players in the league every year. This is what must be considered with Yzerman; he was always among the best players in the league, but because of who he was ranked against, he very rarely received the accolades. Had Yzerman had the exact same career but done it as a left winger, he would probably have been named a postseason All-Star in the following years: 1st team All-Star: 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1993, and 2000. 2nd team All-Star: 1987, 1992, 1996, and 1998. That's six first-team selections and four second-team selections, for a total of ten in 22 seasons. Given his point totals, two-way play, and the other intangibles and awards won even with Gretzky and Lemieux around...that's pretty damn good. Yzerman was always considered among the top few players in the league from around 1987 to around 2002. Being a top player in the league longer than most of these guys' careers lasted, and being one of the better players at his position at both ends of the ice for most of that span makes him dominant.

The suggestion that Yzerman is outside the top 20 automatically invalidates the list...as he has dominated the league as much as pretty much anyone in league history for most of his career despite having to contend with Gretzky and Lemieux for his entire prime during their primes. Yzerman is at minimum a top 10 or 15 player in NHL history; ranking him lower shows a serious lack of hockey history knowledge.

Hmm...the KHL waited until after the Rangers walked away from Zherdev's arbitration and made him a UFA, yet not until after Hudler's hearing even happened?

Sarcasm fail. Super Mario 2 was a 1 player game.

How I would rank the NHL's top 15 defensemen, based on last season, is: 1) Lidstrom 2) Keith 3) Chara 4) Niedermayer 5) Weber 6) Boyle 7) Zubov 8) Markov 9) Bouwmeester 10) Wideman 11) Phaneuf 12) Green 13) Pronger 14) Rafalski 15) Kaberle The thing is, Keith is an extremely solid defensive defenseman with offensive skill, and he has a physical game. Admittedly, he's not perfect, but IMHO he outplayed the rest of these guys (sans Nick) and most of these guys either have yet to reach the level Keith displayed or have been below it and declining for years now. A healthy Zubov, Niedermayer, or Pronger who was in prime form would have beaten Keith out. Chara is the only defenseman on the list who really challenged Keith for the second slot, and his tendency to just happen to pick up points when he did very little to actually produce the offensive play was a disadvantage when compared to Keith, who is a major factor in a lot of Chicago's offensive rushes and their power play setup. Chara is an excellent defensive defenseman, but he's not that much better defensively than Keith to offset the offensive advantage that Keith holds.

...and that's what led to the Clone Wars.

How about Tim Thomas, Scott Gomez, or Chris Drury?

[quote name='MadMan Mark date='August 10, 2009 - 04:39PM No, he read my post correctly. Mike Green is an overrated POS. Duncan Keith deserved a Norris nomination last season.

No cookies necessary, but ty for the offer. I was just pointing it out to all the Helm lovers; many of whom who seem to think he'll score 25 goals and win the Calder this season, and seem to think he's a better player now than guys like Hudler, Williams, or Fedorov. He's a great grinder, but he's still just a high-end fourth liner who probably will never be better than one of the league's top third liners at his absolute peak, while Hudler, etc. have been better players than Helm's peak potential for at least a couple years now (Fedorov has been better than the 'current' Helm by a wide margin since the mid 80s.) I'd love to see how his career works out vs Kopecky's though. I really wanted Kopecky to stay in Detroit; I think he could have been another Franzen.

I have, to start: Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Franzen/Filppula/Leino Cleary/Williams/Eaves Maltby/Draper/Helm Based on this news, to start: Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Franzen/Filppula/Cleary Leino/Williams/Eaves Maltby/Draper/Helm By January, I expect one of these two combinations primarily: Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Franzen/Filppula/Cleary (Leino) Leino (Cleary)/Williams/Eaves Oulahen (McGrath)/Draper/Helm Obviously lines will be shuffled about, but these lines are made up primarily of guys who have already shown chemistry together (ZDH, Malts/Drapes, etc.) and the only thing that needs to be worked on is how the second and third lines go together. Who goes on what line is pretty much set, unless someone manages to play themselves out of the lineup.

I win the daily lines threads. I predicted those exact lines, except for the specific positions, and I had Cleary and Leino switched with the note that "Cleary and Leino may be switched depending on what Babcock prefers to start." But noooo, everyone wanted their precious Helm.

Downey would have to have a contract first. Which he doesn't, and won't.

If you think Keith is expendable first, you have smoked waaaaay too much crack. He became a top three defenseman in the NHL at 25. Patrick Kane is a younger, faster version of Jason Williams who plays on the first line. Seriously; add speed to Williams and play him with Toews and he's a 70-point player. The Hawks should try and drop Campbell and Huet on teams that need salary to hit the floor. Follow that up with signing Toews and Keith. If they are looking at cap trouble regarding Kane's signing, deal him for a 1st pick and a starting goalie who makes about $2.5m-$3m.

I see it quite differently, actually. I expect the Wings to not only go through camp figuring out the best option to carry as a 13th forward, but also to carry 14 forwards to start the season. Each of the four forwards mentioned here has his own advantages over the others, so it will be interesting to see who comes out on top. Oulahen is the most physical and best defensive forward and PK specialist/grinder of the four, so he has an excellent shot at nabbing one of the two slots as the other three, while none are completely incapable defensively, are all primarily offensive forwards. McGrath is a good skater, an average defensive player, but sees the ice very well and is a solid playmaker who creates offensive chances and has a decent shot. He could fill an offensive role on the team on the second or third line without looking too out of place. Newbury is an excellent skater who works hard and is an aggressive player, but doesn't have great offensive tools. He is a solid defensive player. He can play all three forward positions well and is a solid faceoff man, but has a tendency to take bad penalties sometimes. Williams has a wicked shot but is a poor skater, bad defensively, and often makes poor decisions with the puck. He needs to improve his all-around game considerably if he wants to be an NHL regular. Both Newbury and Williams had spent a few games in the NHL with Toronto, but couldn't crack the regular roster. I expect McGrath and Oulahen to win the final two spots, but regardless here is how I see it playing out: I would expect the Wings to play a month or two of the regular season at least, with the 13th and 14th forwards getting playing time against guys like Maltby, Eaves, Draper, Leino, Helm, and possibly even Holmstrom as well. If either of the spares is considerably below the level of the guys he's playing against, I can see him being sent down to Grand Rapids. If the two spares are outplaying vets like Maltby and Draper, look for them to get more playing time. As Maltby, Homer, and Draper stand a good chance of retiring in the next couple years, it would not be surprising to see the Wings take a look at some of the potential depth players like Oulahen and McGrath in that fashion.

Ericsson makes Lebda expendable with a healthy Lilja; Lebda is the worst option of Lebda/Meech/Delmore for a 7th defenseman and Kindl and Kolosov will be hopefully be joining the team soon.

Not everybody understands that teams change names, even if the Wings themselves changed names twice and once wore yellow sweaters.

Something I guess I just don't understand is this. Why is it that everyone is automatically giving a third line spot to Helm, a guy who has proven nothing but the fact that he is willing to hit and grind, and that he is a very fast player, but a guy who also is lacking in any kind of offensive skills when compared to anyone competing for time on the first three lines as well as perhaps McGrath, Abdelkader, Ritola, Oulahen, Jeremy Williams, Dick Axelsson, and more Wings depth forwards who will be in Grand Rapids. I like Helm. I really do. But the Wings the past few years have typically liked their first three lines to be lines that play both ends of the ice fairly well with a strong checking line that brought some speed. With the players currently signed, I see this lineup formed from that philosophy and past line usage: Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Franzen/Filppula/Leino Cleary/Williams/Eaves Maltby/Draper/Helm Oulahen/McGrath Yes, I expect Helm on the fourth line, as well as both Oulahen and McGrath as extra forwards to begin the year due to their waiver status. The reason for Eaves on the third line is because Eaves has proven he can be an effective offensive player in the NHL when used in a secondary offensive role and has a career average of 15 goals and 30 assists per 80 games, while Helm's only performance in the NHL on any line has been as an energy player and grinder. No matter who he has played with, Helm has not really shown any kind of offensive capability at the NHL level. So put Eaves with Cleary and Williams, two solid defensive forwards flanking an offensive forward who tends to be more irresponsible defensively, and you have a third line that fits the two-way description that the Wings like as it is overall good defensively as well as could potentially produce 60+ goals. Overall, I could see the Wings as a team producing between 275-290 goals, which is a solid number as we will probably see better defense from the team and better goaltending from Osgood.

Well hopefully Delmore, who is an experienced PP specialist, replaces Lebda on the roster and he and Meech compete for the spot as the 6th defenseman.

Assuming that Jason Williams is signed for under $2.4 (which he BETTER be), then these are the lines I would expect to start the year. Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Franzen/Filppula/Leino Cleary/Williams/Eaves Maltby/Draper/Helm McGrath/Oulahen

Try peanut butter and marshmallow creme...it's pretty good.

So this is what, a pairs thing? One fighter and one skater? So Tonya Harding is entered as both halves of her pair, right?

No he won't. Guillaume Latendresse hasn't really shown he's going to be more than a 2nd/3rd liner, and he was going to be SO much better than Abby, right everyone? *whistles*

You know, Kopecky hits guys plenty hard. Just because he isn't a guy who injures someone every shift didn't mean he isn't an effective hitter. And furthermore, toughness is not hitting to hurt, and the point of hitting is not hurting. You are seriously misinformed. Toughness is the ability to receive physical play without being intimidated, and if necessary to play through injury when possible, especially when such intimidation or injury would normally be considered overwhelming. Steve Yzerman and Nicklas Lidstrom are examples of toughness. Another good example of toughness? Jiri Hudler and Dan Cleary. Among few Wings the past few seasons willing to dig in the corners and crash the net, despite the fact they are among the smallest guys on the team. And they did it no matter how often opposing defensemen who were several inches taller and 50-60 pounds heavier hitting them and roughed them up in the process. As far as hitting, the point of hitting is to acquire the puck from the puck carrier, and preferably to put your opponent in a state where he is out of the play. Yes, hurting your opponent will do that, but hitting your opponent to the point where he is simply knocked off balance while you have acquired the puck is an effective hit. Kopecky laid very many of those last season, and the promotion of Helm is the only addition as of yet that will offset Kopecky's physical effectiveness.

Move Phoenix back to...I don't know...Phoenix! That alone would do wonders for their fan base. Oh, and either fire Gretzky or move him from behind the bench to on it. He'd be better for the team as a player than as the coach, serving the team as an overpaid center on one of the top two lines rather than as a coach who basically has no positive effect; I am honestly unsure if the Yotes would be better or worse if the players were to play the entire season without any coaching staff at all. And furthermore, realistically, London is about as close as you can get to Buffalo or Toronto and have an NHL team that won't pull from either team, as opposed to Hamilton, which pulls from both. Honestly, I would not be opposed to a two-team expansion in the next two or three seasons. Give Balsillie a team in London, and put the other team in Houston, KC, or Vegas. Make it four eight-team divisions, with the top divisional teams getting guaranteed playoff spots and the next four being based on record. Seed 1-8 based on record, no bonus for winning division. All-Star break would be as follows: All-Star teams would play a single-game elimination tournament with same-conference divisions playing and then conference champions playing. 4 forwards, 4 defensemen, and one goalie for each division would be selected for the Youngstars game, which would be two 10-minute periods of 4-on-4 hockey. Each All-Star team would be fan-voted starters (3F, 2D, 1G) from each division, plus eight forwards, three defensemen, and two goalies for a total of 11-5-3. The best forward and defenseman from the Youngstars team for that division would be added on to make the team 12-6-3. All teams in each division would be represented by at least one player. The All-Star break could have the following schedule: Thursday: 7:00EST All-Star Skills Competition Friday: 7:00EST Youngstars Eastern game, 8:30 Youngstars Western game Saturday: 12:00 EST Youngstars Championship game, 4:00EST Eastern game, 7:00EST Western game. Sunday: 12:00EST All-Star Championship game This allows more players to have an All-Star experience, with more chance for revenue, a slightly longer break for those players not participating, and more all-around entertainment. This format could even be modified to work with the current number of teams.

What to expect from Eaves based on career: 81 GP, 15g-15a-30pt, +4, 10 PIM, 4ppg-2ppa-6ppp, 1shg-0sha-1shp, 142sog, 10.6% What to expect based on the past three seasons: 80 GP, 8g-13a-21pt, +4, 30 PIM, 1ppg, 1shg, 141sog, 5.7%