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FACT: Any top hockey players list that includes players from the 80s and does not include Yzerman in the Top 10 is flat-out, unarguably wrong.

Yzerman was a much better all-around player than Crosby was; in Yzerman's first 100-point season, at age 23, he also received a first-place Selke vote. The next season he became the only player in history to receive a first-place Selke vote in the same season as scoring 150 points, despite the numerous times Gretzky and Lemieux cleared that plateau, they never did it. Do you think Crosby will? I doubt it. People talk about him being one of the 10 best players ever in this thread. Right now, he is at BEST the third-best player aged 23-and-under, and he is also the worst defensively and physically and scored the fewest points of all of the three I am considering. He'll also have to compete with Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, and Orr as the standards, plus whoever you want to put in as the filler for the top ten. How likely do you think Ovechkin and Malkin are to reach the plateau of top-ten all-time, and be compared with that group? Crosby has those same odds.

Yep, because Hossa will not be coming back if the Wings try to trade players who have NTCs, or (as stated in another thread) Hossa will not be coming back if the Wings trade key young players that they drafted and are developing. Makes it difficult for Mr. Holland to clear cap space to keep Hossa.

If the Wings are to re-sign Hossa with a $6m cap hit, as well as signing Hudler, Kopecky, and Leino and promoting Helm, Leino, Ericsson, and Howard, then the ideal move is, unfortunately, for Cleary and Stuart to waive their NTCs. This allows the Wings to avoid trading Filppula or Kronwall; the only significant player lost is Samuelsson, who walks as UFA along with Chelios and Conklin. http://tinyurl.com/d9r82g

So far in the postseason, Osgood has been the best goaltender. He has made numerous HUGE stops that have been game-saving or game-changing plays in that they prevented Columbus from scoring goals at key moments when the score was still close. Would you argue they have had the best defense or best offense, given the numbers posted by other teams?

Nice!

1995-96 Ozzie was the top goalie in the NHL and should have won the Vezina; voters were simply impressed by Jim Carey's number of shutouts rather than his level of play, as well as figuring because the Wings were such a dominant team, that Ozzie must have benefitted from it, rather than recognizing that part of the reason the team was so dominant was the fact they had such a dominant goaltender. Roy dominated his era? He played 23 seasons and won how many Vezinas? The correct answer is three. 13% of his total seasons played. SO dominant. Hasek was as dominant as any goalie has been since they took away territorial rights, if you actually start with teams that were not built through that incredibly unfair process and do not count Dryden, Plante, Sawchuk, or any early-era goaltenders. And Hasek won six Vezinas in a 16-season career; 37.5%. That's very impressive, but not dominant. Dryden was dominant; selected as the league's top goaltender five times in his seven year career. However; His team was so ridiculously great that any NHL-level goaltender should have been a first-team all-star at least three of those years. His defense included J.C. Tremblay, Guy Lapointe, Larry Robinson, and Serge Savard. His forwards included Guy Lafleur, Frank Mahovlich, Jacques Lemaire, Steve Shutt, Yvon Cournoyer, Bob Gainey, Pete Mahovlich, Pierre Larouche, and more. There is no goaltender in the Hall of Fame, or headed there, who did not play for a team that had skilled defensive players and/or a defensive system that made his job easier, or controlled the play so much that the offense often served as a surrogate defense. Think about times HHOF goaltenders played for teams that didn't have these qualities. They may still have been among the league's better goaltenders, such as Osgood in 2001-02, but in those situations they certainly weren't the 'dominant' goaltender they were on the great teams they played on. Grant Fuhr's performances in different cities is a prime example. He played for Edmonton, Toronto, Buffalo, Los Angeles, St. Louis, and Calgary. His best performances came with St. Louis, a team built around a Norris contender whose primary ability was defense. Despite the fact Fuhr won the Vezina in 1987-88, his best seasons were 1995-96 and 1996-97, even though he was proclaimed to have been "done" when he played for the Sabres and Kings in 93-94 and 94-95.

Interesting comparison... I put together the best roster I could using players' cap hits for next season, using only players whose current contracts continued into next season, with one exception. I wanted to see how it would stack up as compared to this year's Red Wings roster. The roster and lines I came up with were: Henrik Zetterberg/Pavel Datsyuk/Tomas Holmstrom Milan Lucic/Mike Richards/Zach Parise Ryan Kesler/Jonathan Toews/Phil Kessel Drew Miller/Darren Helm/Claude Giroux Derek Dorsett Nicklas Lidstrom/Andreas Lilja Niklas Kronwall/Dennis Wideman Jonathan Ericsson/Kyle Quincey Luke Schenn Derek Meech Chris Osgood Steve Mason In my opinion, the goaltending is obviously better, the defense is better, and the forward corps is noticeably better. Anyone have any commentary? This roster has a total cap hit of 55.07 for next season. In 2-3 years, the team will probably have some cap issues, but the team is made almost completely of young players who excel at their roles, so trading off a guy like Zach Parise, Phil Kessel, or Dennis Wideman to acquire a decent pick, a good prospect, and a solid checking line player with a cheap contract wouldn't be out of the question.

Did I ever "jump on Ozzie"? Nobody is scrutinizing you for giving Ozzie credit....it is well deserved. If people would actually read what I've said, I've just pointed out that goaltending is the weakest part of Detroit's team. Is that an outlandish statement? Nobody is any happier than I am that Ozzie is playing well. I live in Oklahoma and have been a Wings fan for over 20 years. I've probably spent as much money as most of the people living in Michigan going to watch them play. I was at game 3 (seats on the ice) for game 3 of the Dallas series last year, at game 1 of the Finals against the Pens in Detroit (seats on the ice again), and was actually stupid enough to be one of the what appeared to be less than 50 people at Game 4 in Pittsburgh to wear a Wings jersey (most expensive tickets of all......and the most rude treatment by fans in history). If you think that goaltending isn't the weakest part of the team.....I respectfully disagree....but I'd have to think you're in the minority. So far, through the first two games, goaltending has been the strongest part of the team. This is evidenced by the fact that Osgood was named first star in both games, and has been the best goaltender so far in the playoffs statistically in every important category. Granted, the Wings have not displayed much weakness, other than perhaps a slow start in Game 1 that was, for the most part, eliminated in Game 2. But that doesn't mean that Osgood is the weak link because the Wings are strong in other areas.

Career-wise, the three players Boston received for Thornton produce about 35% more offense in the postseason while also being better defensively and providing more of a physical presence. Also notably, a couple seasons later Wayne Primeau and Brad Stuart (and nothing else) were traded to Calgary for Chuck Kobasew and Andrew Ference (and nothing else). Sturm, Kobasew, and Ference are all still on the team. That's definitely better than just Thornton, especially at Thornton's price. Maybe that's part of why Boston has had such a turnaround.

You know the funny thing? Of goaltenders in the top 25 in wins in the playoffs OR wins in the regular season, I can only see 5 goalies, not including Osgood, who are unlikely to make the Hall of Fame with their current statistics and accomplishments. John Vanbiesbrouck, who has the on-ice accomplishments but off-ice issues that will almost certainly prevent induction (otherwise he would likely already be in) Mike Richter (long since retired with no HOF discussion) Sean Burke (retired with no HOF discussion and none of the benchmarks of an HOF career other than wins) Nikolai Khabibulin (close to the end of his career; most of which was average with a short and impressive peak) Olaf Kolzig (close to the end of his career, at this point fighting to stay in the league. Does not have the necessary stats and achievements for HOF induction) Richter and Khabibulin each won a single Cup. Combined, that is what Osgood has won as a starter. Osgood has far more wins than all (except the much older Vanbiesbrouck) in the regular season and far more wins than all in the postseason. As far as active goaltenders, Khabibulin is basically one month younger than Osgood and Kolzig is basically two and a half years older. Osgood is the only goaltender his team actually wanted to keep from the start of the season until the end, with Kolzig being traded due to Tampa needing cap space now and Toronto needing it in the summer; and Khabibulin being waived in an attempt to get rid of his contract. He proceeded to clear waivers, and then win the starting job over Cristobal Huet, who had arrived from Washington after taking the starting job away from Kolzig. In other, simpler words; Osgood's stats and accomplishments are far more comparable to current Hall of Famers or players considered locks for the Hall of Fame. Saying that Osgood, an active player who will likely win quite a few more regular season and playoff games, as well as a very good chance at winning at LEAST one Cup as starter, should not be inducted is like suggesting that suggesting early NHL history should be ignored. Ozzie is an HOFer. Prove he isn't, and use a reason better than "his teams were really good" because that knocks out guys like Ken Dryden, Patrick Roy, Jacques Plante, and other goaltenders who dominated their era and won a bunch of Cups.

The best situation for the roster next season would be: Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom Franzen/Hudler/Hossa Leino/Filppula/Kopecky Maltby/Draper/Helm Downey (or other minimum-wage veteran) OR Ritola Lidstrom/Rafalski Kronwall/Ericsson Meech/Chelios/Lilja Osgood Howard Chelios plays about 20-35 games, depending on injuries. I would have preferred to use Abdelkader as a fourth liner with Maltby as the spare forward rather than Ritola or Downey/other cheap veteran, but the cap space doesn't allow for it. Of course, this roster requires getting two players to waive NTCs, and both Chelios and Downey (if it's him as the 13th) to take a pay cut...so it's a real questionmark.

The article said Osgood was fighting shots and that the team in front of him was making him "appear" stalwart. In other words, the article was saying that Osgood is not playing well, but because the rest of the Wings are playing so amazingly it's not immediately noticable. Never mind that Osgood has been named first star two games in a row. Let's see if he can stretch that streak to four!

Hudler looked about ready to drop 'em at one point the other night. Now THAT would have been a fight!

I KNOW he has a no-trade clause. That doesn't mean he's untradeable. It just means that if he doesn't want to be traded, the Wings probably have to trade one or both of Kronwall and Filppula; unless they can trade Cleary, who also has a NTC. As I have repeatedly said: Stuart has the worst value to cap hit ratio, and also the highest cap hit, among players who are not core players and would make a difference regarding the cap. If they can't open the space they need, it's bye bye Hossa because they paid Franzen too much.

HOWEVER; Ranford's experience was a washed-up veteran bringing all he had left against a team that was almost as capable offensively and defensively as the Wings. Had Osgood been healthy for that series, the outcome is probably different given that Osgood v. Roy was basically a wash in terms of regular season performance, and both goalies raise their level of play in the play in the postseason. Ozzie doesn't get injured in '99 and the Wings likely three-peat.

Sharing third-pair time with Meech for a minimum-wage salary as a replacement for a Lebda trade? You bet.

If the Wings win the Cup this season, Osgood is tied for fourth among goaltenders in total Cup wins at four, and sixth among starters at three. Some kind of playoff choker there, huh.

Lebda on the Red Wings as anything other than a 6th/7th defenseman whose spot is entirely based on how he is playing is too high. He is at best equal to Meech and is more than two years older. Ideally Lebda would be traded to a team that could use him in the top six and would give up something for him. The Wings can then sign Chelios as a part-time, minimum-wager and allow Meech to play 40-50 games or more depending on injuries while Chelios serves as a mentor who is cheaper than Lebda. The Wings only need to carry 7 defensemen, so why waste a spot on Lebda when he's no better than Meech or Chelios, costs the most, and isn't going to GET any better. Hell, I said before the season to trade Lebda and keep defensive, physical Quincey who is a skilled puckhandler capable of taking an offensive role; how would that have worked out?

"I wish my guys were that good at nearly doing it illegally!!"

I think that's Franzen, not Kopecky. Hank is at the dot and Hudler is on the other wing; Franzen received the second assist on the play, although I don't know if he should have as he passed it to Kronwall, who then passed to Samuelsson, then received the puck back from Sammy.

Looking back on it, it also makes me never want to declare a favorite defensive pair again. The last time I declared a favorite defensive pair on the Wings; which to this date is still my favorite pairing since they were put together; is the Konstantinov/Chiasson pairing that played together from early in the 91-92 season through the end of the 93-94 season.

You must have read some pretty short scouting reports. The reports I read included (paraphrased) "Moved from forward to defense due to his size, general skill, and hockey smarts." Basically Ericsson was moved to defense because it was more useful to have someone with his abilities manning the blueline. Moving Ericsson is like Mark Howe; he wasn't moved because he couldn't play where he was. He was moved because the team needed him elsewhere. Howe began in the WHA in 1973 playing left wing, and by 1976 was a defenseman full-time. Had he not suffered the injury he did in December 1980, he might be considered among the greatest defensemen ever, on par with Bourque, Lidstrom, etc.

The defense next season will hopefully consist of: A top five of: Nick Lidstrom, Brian Rafalski, Nik Kronwall, Jonathan Ericsson, Andreas Lilja Only one of Brett Lebda or Chris Chelios; preferably with Lebda traded for pick(s) and/or prospect(s) and Chelios signed at league minimum to replace him on the roster. Derek Meech, splitting games with Lebda/Chelios and possibly also serving as a spare forward depending on injuries and whether the cap is increased. Ideally Brad Stuart is traded for pick(s) and/or prospect(s) as part of manuevering to arrange for cap space to retain the free agents Holland intends to keep, as Stuart is the number one playr the Wings should trade as compared to his cap hit, future potential, and potential replacements the team has.

McGrath is in Grand Rapids and will either be brought up in the next couple seasons, traded, or let go as a UFA. Jamtin signed as a UFA with the Rangers this past summer and, after a few games in North America spent most of the year in Elitserien. Jamtin's current contract in Sweden runs through the end of 09-10.