eva unit zero

And it's STILL not a defensive statistic. Plus-minus has as much relevance to a player's defensive ability as power-play goals and penalty minutes do. Absolutely no relevance at all.

It's interesting that so many posters whose screen names include 'dats' or Datsyuk' or some variation are so easily swayed to one side of this discussion. Not suggesting any bias in some peoples' opinions or anything.

Right now, the current Wings roster has 7 forwards and 7 defensemen signed for next season. If you add F Helm, D Ericsson, and G Howard, who are basically locks, then the Wings have just over $7m in cap space if the cap stays the same. Say we move Meech to forward full time. Now we're at 9-7-2. We need to sign 4 forwards with that $7m we have. What you're missing is not that people would have to be traded. You're missing that contract(s) would have to be moved to open up cap space. If Hossa signs for $6m, the Wings don't have enough space to fill out the roster. They can sign two bare minimum forwards and run with 12-7-2, using Lebda as the spare forward if necessary. Or they can trade Brad Stuart for picks/prospects, and sign Hudler, Samuelsson, Leino, and Kopecky, and run Meech as a defenseman.

If you can explain to me why offense matters in how the Selke winner is selected, then I may give in to your argument. As it stands, I still say Zetterberg is more deserving of the Selke than Datsyuk, but neither is likely to win it this season. Also, please learn that +/- is NOT a defensive statistic and does NOT represent a player's defensive ability. There are not really any stats kept by the NHL that reliably track defensive performance.

I've seen it happen where a guy has dumped the puck in and gone to the bench for a line change, and due to mishandling by the other team the puck ended up in the net after he was on the bench, and he was credited with the goal.

Zetterberg has been playing in a defensive role on the second line all season while Datsyuk has been playing in an offensive role on the first line all season. Datsyuk has had more talented linemates in more games. Zetterberg wasn't afforded those luxuries this season so his scoring numbers suffered. Oops, did I use your own argument against you, and now you'll say it doesn't count? Zetterberg played on the second line his rookie season because he was good enough to. Datsyuk wasn't afforded that luxury because he didn't earn it.

No, Franzen won't sign for $3m. It's what he SHOULD sign for, $3m or less....but he won't.

Well, if it's Option 1 (Stuart is traded) and Hudler is offered a contract that is $2.6m or less, then the Wings can match it and let Samuelsson leave as a UFA. If it's below $2.41m, they match the offer, and can promote Abdelkader to fill Samuelsson's spot with equal or lesser overall cap hit. If it's Option 2 (Filppula and Lebda are traded) and the offer is at/below $2.41, Samuelsson can be replaced by Abdelkader. If it's Option 3 or Option 4, and the offer is below $2.6, and the Wings can complete a roster while matching Hudler's offer, then they match. If it's over 2.6m, then it would depend what the offer is as to whether the Wings can match it, but the Wings letting Hudler go at that offer is definitely ok if they have to because they get a 1st pick and 3rd pick at least, depending on the offer. $4m plus will add a second pick, and at $5.2m there's another first involved. Over $6.5m sees those four picks all turn into first rounders. That said, I don't expect to see another team making an offer on Hudler that the Wings can't match. Think about it...the cap is expected to be going down in the next few years; who throws out an offer for Hudler that Detroit can't match given the economic scenario?

Nice goin', Angela!

Players signed to contracts with the Detroit Red Wings for 2009-10 who I would expect to be in the National Hockey League next season: C Datsyuk $6,700,000 C/LW Zetterberg $6,083,333 F Filppula $3,000,000 F Cleary $2,800,000 W Holmstrom $2,250,000 F Draper $1,583,333 W Maltby $883,333 F Helm $599,444 D Lidstrom $7,450,000 D Rafalski $6,000,000 D Stuart $3,750,000 D Kronwall $3,000,000 D Lilja $1,250,000 D Ericsson $900,000 D Lebda $650,000 D/F Meech $483,333 G Osgood $1,416,667 G Howard $716,667 Total $49,516,110 Free cap space $7,183,890 8 Forwards, 8 Defensemen, 2 Goaltenders signed. The Wings currently have the following players (6F, 1D, 1G) as free agents: W Hossa $7.45m W Samuelsson $1.25m F Hudler (RFA) $1.015m F Franzen $941,667 F Leino (RFA) $875k F Kopecky $500k D Chelios $750k G Conklin $750k The contracts I expect to be signed by the Wings are the following cap hits: W Hossa $6m/yr F Hudler $1.8m/yr W Samuelsson $1.35m/yr F Leino $1m/yr F Kopecky $575k/yr Total $10.725m for 5 forwards, up to a total of 13 forwards, 8 defensemen, and 2 goalies. This pushes the Wings' total cap hit up to $60,241,111; this is $3,541,111 over the current cap. The Wings have two realistic trade options to get underneath the cap. Option 1, assuming a trade would be accepted, is to trade Brad Stuart and his $3.75m cap hit for picks and prospects. This drops the team down to a 22-man roster and is underneath the cap. Option 2 is to trade both forward Valtteri Filppula and defenseman Brett Lebda, either together or separately for picks and/or prospects. They would provide enough cap clearance together, but $100k less than Stuart alone would. Option 3, assuming Franzen is willing to sign for the same $3m Filppula makes, trade all three of Stuart/Filppula/Lebda. Kindl also gets promoted in this scenario, which fits under the cap just barely unless you replace the re-signing of Samuelsson with promotion of Abdelkader. Option 4 if Franzen is willing to sign at close to $3m is for Ken Holland to explore trading Dan Cleary depending on his NTC requirements, as well as replacing Mikael Samuelsson with Justin Abdelkader on the roster if necessary to save cap space. This is similar to Option 3, except that it requires the Abdelkader move and allows the Wings to keep Filppula. Option 1 Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom Kopecky/Hudler/Hossa Leino/Filppula/Samuelsson Cleary/Draper/Helm Maltby Lidstrom/Rafalski Kronwall/Ericsson Meech/Lilja Lebda Osgood Howard Option 2 Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom Kopecky/Hudler/Hossa Cleary/Leino/Samuelsson Maltby/Draper/Helm Meech Lidstrom/Rafalski Kronwall/Ericsson Stuart/Lilja Meech Osgood Howard Option 3 Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom Franzen/Hudler/Hossa Cleary/Kopecky/Leino Abdelkader/Draper/Helm Maltby Lidstrom/Rafalski Kronwall/Ericsson Meech/Lilja Lebda Osgood Howard Option 4 Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom Franzen/Hudler/Hossa Kopecky/Filppula/Leino Abdelkader/Draper/Helm Maltby Lidstrom/Rafalski Kronwall/Ericsson Meech/Lilja Lebda Osgood Howard

Dave Lewis was an AC with the Wings for nine seasons...Steve Yzerman is the ONLY player who played with Dave Lewis and was still on the team when Lewis was Head Coach. As far as Lewis' first season as Assistant Coach, Rick Zombo was the only defenseman who played for the Wings that year who had played 60+ games with the Wings the previous year. Now consider that Lewis only played 6 in his final season as a player, 1987-88, and basically served as an extra Assistant Coach already, as the Wings had a bit of shuffling going on in their defense and only three defensemen played 60+ games for Detroit that season. Lewis' last "real" season, 1986-87 saw some of the same guys who would be playing the next couple seasons play part of the year, most notably Lee Norwood, who would leave the Wings in the 1990-91 season so the "peer" argument has limited value, as his time spent being coached by Lewis was not very long. Garth Snow is probably a better example. Retired from backup goalie and was immediately hired as the same team's General Manager. Talk about unusual moves. These are guys who were in the league 5 years ago and are now holding major jobs. How do you think Mark Recchi felt before Tampa Bay traded him to Boston? A player who was traded for him and considered not as good at the time, and had not had as much success since then, was supposed to be his coach now? Of course I am speaking of Tampa Bay's interim coach Rick Tocchet.

I can't find a clear enough angle to tell if Franzen tipped it or if it bounced off an Oiler. But it's definitely credited as if Franzen tipped it to Filppula, and usually mistakes like that are corrected by the next day if they are mistakes. As I said, I can't find a clear angle on it.

You keep using offense to justify why Datsyuk is better defensively. Huh? And explain to me why Zetterberg is the top forward of choice on the PK for Babcock, and then guys like Draper and Cleary are used before Dats? If Dats were the top defensive forward, he'd be Babcock's first pick on the PK.

Well, you are incorrect as Filppula was the center for three (Cheechoo, Michalek, Marleau) of San Jose's six goals, Zetterberg was the center for two (Boyle, Pavelski), and Datsyuk was the center for one (Ehrhoff). Seems like you just can't get things right when you make your vast assumptions. Oh btw...Datsyuk played with Hossa that game too.

30 games of an 82 game season. That's not a huge chunk at all. And as I said....Z didn't produce as much because he was on defensive duty for more of his ice time. Z has been matched up against the opposing team's top line most games and has been in a defensive role most games. Datsyuk's job has been to score and to set up scoring plays. This has been muddied slightly since Hossa was put on Z's line, mostly to try and take advantage of defensive deficiency of top lines I would suppose. And I agreed with the fact that Datsyuk is the better offensive player. But Zetterberg is still a better player overall.

You do realize Datsyuk and Hossa were together for the first four months of the season before Babcock started really experimenting with lines, right? Zetterberg spent most of that time with guys like Cleary, Samuelsson, Franzen, and Filppula while Dats was consistently between Homer and Hossa. Is that why you are so screwed up? You think Z has been with Hossa all year?

I can easily see Jonathan Ericsson on the power play before long, and Hudler played the point much of his time in Grand Rapids so he's another option.

Datsyuk is better offensively. Zetterberg is better defensively. Overall, they are virtually even; I would probably take Zetterberg if I could only have one of them. One thing you forget Jeff is that Dats has played most of this season with Hossa in Z's place, while Z has played as a second line shutdown center for most of this season. Think about that for a second; it means that where Dats would have benefitted from Z, he is instead benefitting from Hossa, a player of equal offensive skill. Z, OTOH, is not playing with anyone of Dats' caliber and therefore his linemates are considerably worse offensively. Plus his role shifted to that of a shutdown center, so his primary purpose is to stop the opponent from scoring. These changes in circumstance are what has led to Z's significant drop in points per game from last season. He is playing far less of an offensive role and when he plays his linemates are usually much less offensively skilled than Dats/Homer. Talking about Datsyuk for the Selke this season is just silly. For one, he shouldn't have won it last year; he will even tell you that being placed on a line with Zetterberg allowed him more offensive freedom due to Z's defense. Z should have won last year; granted, Dats was a deserving nominee last season. This season I don't think Dats has been as good defensively, however I think Z has actually been better. Either Z or Ryan Kesler should take the Selke home this season. Dats is a very good defensive forward...but he's not the best.

Roloson should have stopped Hossa's goal...that was weak.

Here's a thought for all the Ozzie bashers: The goalie with the best odds of being the starting goaltender for the Stanley Cup champions this season is Chris Osgood. Not Martin Brodeur, Roberto Luongo, Steve Mason, Tim Thomas, Evgeni Nabokov, or anyone else you might prefer. Chris Osgood. Ozzie. Tough to swallow that pill?

I started as a forward and became a pretty good two way forward who could definitely score, but later in my career I shifted back to defense and at one point played defense full time, becoming the best defenseman on my team. I was a decent skater but my success at all positions always came back to my vision and ability to see the play developing and know where to go. I'm Mark Howe.

A lot of you will hate this. Some will actually see the logic. The most logical replacement on next year's roster for Franzen is Tomas Kopecky. He has the size and skating ability, he can score consistently when he's playing in an offensive role and he's a good enough defensive player to be given PK time. As far as Leino replacing anyone...as nn said, Samuelsson is the only player he could come close to immediately replacing. Leino doesn't have even close to Hudler's defensive or playmaking abilities; even Zetterberg and Hossa are behind Hudler in playmaking.

There is nobody on that list, in those years, that Green even comes CLOSE to in defensive ability except for one person. Phil Housley. That's it. The only 30-goal scoring defenseman Mike Green is anywhere near is Phil Housley. Sorry, but that is a step below Norris-level, which is what Lidstrom is at. Orr, Potvin, Bourque, Wilson were all very good defensively. Coffey and Hatcher in their primes were much better than average defensively, and that includes their 30-goal seasons. Green has put up big numbers...but his defense has been atrocious. I would put him in the same level of defensemen as Rafalski and Kronwall, just below that top handful of guys who are actually valid contenders. It's like I have said. Lidstrom is the reason Dats has a 0% chance at the Hart. Because Dats is not even Detroit's MVP, he can't be the league's MVP.

Trade idea... D Brad Stuart, D Brett Lebda and C Evan McGrath/Cory Emmerton to Vancouver C Ryan Kesler, and 2nd and 3rd round pick to Detroit Detroit also does not re-sign Mikael Samuelsson. Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom Kopecky/Hudler/Hossa Leino/Filppula/Cleary Kesler/Draper/Helm Maltby Lidstrom/Rafalski Kronwall/Ericsson Kindl/Lilja Meech Osgood Howard Significant improvement defensively as well as a younger roster.

Be fair; Vancouver isn't Kesler's hometown, Livonia is. He should sign for the 1.35 I had slotted for Samuelsson as a hometown discount. /thread