eva unit zero

From Feb. 7th to Feb 28th, it was Hudler/Datsyuk/Cleary for 11 games. Here are the stats: Hudler 4g-10a-14pt, +7 Datsyuk 7g-5a-12pt, +6 Cleary 6g-6a-12pt, +5 Yep, not deadly at all. I certainly wouldn't want a line that posts that kind of numbers all year, plus the ability to dress Z, Franzen, and Filppula elsewhere in the lineup. Hudler posting 37 is a low year, and he has been soundly criticized by just about everyone fot it. Brunnstrom posting 20 would be increasing his career total by 50%, after having only posted 35 points in 72 games in the AHL last year. By comparison, Cory Emmerton missed time injured, spent time in the NHL, and still posted 38 points in 65 games last year. He's also three years younger. So why would we keep Brunnstrom over Emmerton unless Fabio... err, Fabian, is some kind of wunderkind in training camp who will end up posting like 50 or 60 points this season?

I really don't mean to make this a Hudler thread... but Mursak has to earn a spot in the lineup first. And beyond that, the Cleary/Zetterberg/Hudler and Cleary/Datsyuk/Hudler lines were absolutely DEADLY combinations last season. So how about we start with: Hudler/Datsyuk/Cleary Franzen/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Brunnstrom/Filppula/Bertuzzi Mursak/Helm/Eaves OR Hudler/Zetterberg/Bertuzzi Filppula/Datsyuk/Franzen Cleary/Helm/Eaves Brunnstrom/Abdelkader/Holmstrom The third line here is basically a ramped up version of the fourth line in the previous lineup. This lineup also allows for less even strength time for Homer while still keeping him in an effective role; his line has some offensive talent but can be used as a checking line as it is anchored by Abdelkader. I would expect, though, to have something closer to the first lineup but with Abdelkader instead of Brunnstrom.

Crosby's not a lock. Neither is Lindros. But both IMHO are over the cusp based on what the selection committee has shown to be the standards. They were (if Crosby is done) one of if not the most dominant player in the world for much of their career, won a Hart trophy, and had excellent scoring numbers. Crosby doesn't have much in terms of the way of postseason All-Star achievements. Compare him on paper to Ovechkin and Ovechkin's career looks much more HHOF-worthy, aside from the Cup, despite the fact that the two have been more or less equals for their entire careers. The same can be said of Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Datsyuk has a bunch of Selkes, Zetterberg has a Conn Smythe. Dats has a bunch more points. But they've been more or less equal players for their entire careers; if one is worthy so is the other. Makarov should already be in; Nieuwendyk and Gilmour over Makarov this year was insane, Ciccarelli and Neely ridiculous. It's becoming the NHL hall of fame if they start ignoring guys like Makarov who were among the best players in the world when they didn't play in the NHL. However, and I know I will be lambasted for this, I think the comment about the Hall/potential can be traced to precedent not through Cam Neely, but to Bobby Orr. Orr would not be considered the best defenseman ever if he had not had his career cut short. It would be Doug Harvey or Red Kelly, or maybe Denis Potvin. What if Ray Bourque had a career-ending injury in the 1994 playoffs? He'd have 5 Norrises, 11 First-Team selections, and 4 Second-Team selections in 15 year career. At that point, his only obvious challengers were the same guys who he had been dominating (Chelios, MacInnis, Housley, Suter, Hatcher, Stevens, Leetch), suggesting he would continue to win Norrises and First-Team selections. Maybe Bourque would be considered the best ever? Or if Coffey wrecks his knee and retires in 1989? If Orr plays a long career where he loses his speed, and Bourque has an injury costing him much of a great career, Bourque is probably considered the better defenseman because of what he *could* have continued to do. It's subconscious, but it's true. Even if Bourque didn't win another two or three Norris trophies after 1994, if he had been injured people would have thought he *could* have won many more because of how dominant he was. Just as people say Orr could have gone on to win more, but realistically he might have won a couple more but would have started to lose out to guys like Savard, Potvin, etc. who were in their primes while Orr was at that point much older and slower. He could have finished with maybe 11, but I doubt more. And his years after that would not have been elite years the way Bourque's were. But of course we have to go based on reality. And Orr was, when he played, absof***ingamazing. So calling him the best ever is certainly justified. I still say Cam Neely in the Hall is borderline, but he did have a pretty good career. Three-time 50-goal scorer, just under 400 points, just under 700 points, all in just over 700 games. Four-time Second-Team All-Star at right wing. Twice behind Hull's ridiculous seasons. More deserving than Bure.

Maybe this will jog people's memories: TSN: Brunnström talks to Red Wings, Canadiens next After He decided to sign with Dallas instead of Detroit, the Wings went out and picked up a different player who flopped with his initial NHL team. Remember him? Ville Leino.

Out of our top eight forwards, Franzen is the one I would be most willing to trade. Hudler hasn't produced as much; but he has shown that he is capable of playing well beyond Franzen's established (regular season) ceiling, plus Hudler is much younger and is improving while Franzen has been declining. A Franzen deal would be for a bonafide top-line scorer or a top-pairing defenseman, while Homer or Bert alone bring back almost nothing. Filppula has more trade value than Franzen, but he's also more important to the team and a better player than Franzen, and that gap will only increase. It's not worth dealing him now instead of Franzen unless it's a deal in Detroit's favor for a guy like Doughty or Stamkos, Filppula is the only major piece of the current team given up, and the deal doesn't happen if it's Franzen.

The same way most people on the board get away with saying Hudler had a terrible season despite the fact that: He finished tied at 159th in forward scoring with 37 points. He tied for 7th among Wings forwards in points despite being 9th in ice time. But ultimately, this thread isn't about me or Hudler, so let's stop this s*** and everyone can stop taking the little jabs at me because they think they're the next Jose Jalapeno... on a stick. Dats has only played 6 more games than Z since Z entered the league. Dats also missed time injured for two separate stretches last year, and was injured in the playoffs. Don't be so quick to say "Z is injury prone, keep Dats!!!"

The Wings have won 13 Prince of Wales trophies and 6 Campbell bowls. The Flyers have 4 and 6, and the Blackhawks 2 and 5, respectively. Franzen's career high is 59 and he has only cleared 50 points one other time in his career, being last season. Given his age, injury history, and performance over the past couple of years I would call 50 points a "good" season. A "bad" season based on his past couple years would be 25 or 30 points. Of course this is LGW, where Franzen is expected to put up *another* 40 goal season, despite never having done it before. Also, if you are saying Smith beats out Commodore for the 7th defenseman, he's still in the press box. Which keeps him in Grand Rapids. So I'm going to assume you meant the #6 spot. And given the roles on the team, it's likely Smith would also have to beat out Ericsson or White for time to make the jump directly into the lineup this year.

Malkin jumped Z from behind. When Z turned around, Satan started interfering and Malkin got free shots at him. Z managed to get free of Satan, and made Malkin his ***** after that. So I don't know exactly how you say Z couldn't beat up Malkin. Seemed like a pretty clear win.

I picked Zetterberg. He's the guy who's always looked to for the defensive shutdown, he's a top scorer in the league, he's an amazing all-around player, and he's a great leader. Datsyuk is flashier, but I think Z is the better player. Dats also will cost considerably more soon; he already has a higher cap hit and his contract ends soon, while Z has a lifetime deal. But ultimately, if we're looking for cap space, can't we just trade Franzen instead? I mean come on. He might be worth a $4m cap hit now, but he probably won't be worth it in three years. He only makes $2m less than Zetterberg. Would you rather have Franzen and a third liner, or Zetterberg? That's like asking "Do you want me to punch you in the face and the stomach, or kick you in the balls with steel-toed boots?"

Given all of the Hudler hate on the board, and the fact that people think his performance last season was terrible, horrible, whatever description you like, I thought I would ask this question. What third-line (based on ice time) players around the league do you think 'suck' who plays a scoring role, yet still put up around 40 points? I'd like to see the list of names this board comes up with just so we have an idea of who is having comparable seasons to what Hudler did last year. I'll start it off with a few names: Mason Raymond, Vancouver Tomas Kopecky, Chicago Devin Setoguchi, San Jose Anthony Stewart, Atlanta Tomas Holmstrom, Detroit James van Riemsdyk, Philadelphia Brian Boyle, Rangers There are a great deal more out there. Anyone care to list them? Who out there is a terrible player who played in a scoring role and put up similar numbers to Hudler? How about notably worse numbers? We can bring up these guys: Ruslan Fedotenko, Rangers Marc Savard, Boston Jason Arnott, Washington Radek Dvorak, Atlanta

I would disagree. For one thing, a big part of last year was Zetterberg almost singlehandedly carrying the team through a 15-game stretch. Datsyuk is flashier, and so he gets the media attention and praise. But ultimately Z has shown himself to be the foundation that the Wings will be built on going forward. Datsyuk is certainly important, but it's like the question of "Who's more important to the Homecoming Dance, the Homecoming Queen or the dance planner?"

I wanted a second line of Franzen/Hudler/Hossa in 2008-09. That line would have decimated teams.

Hudler spent most of the year on the third line, played a little bit on the top two, and played just as much on the fourth. Funny thing is, Hudler backchecks harder than any of those guys did. And he always has.

1. Darren Helm is probably not going to score 20 goals in this or any other season. If we're talking 20 goals based on 1993 scoring rates, sure. But that's like 15 goals this year. 2. Jiri Hudler is not going to be sent to Grand Rapids. If the Wings waive him, he's off to a team that needs another scoring forward and never makes it to the 'assignment' part. 3. Kronwall is going to lose his defensive and physical abilities, and go bald? 4. It hurts. It hurts so much. Why must you do this to me? 5. Seems like a reasonable thought. Except for one thing; what assets are given up? Holland won't be giving up any significant assets unless the defenseman is more than a rental. Which severely limits options and the chance of a deal. 6. He'll be a very mediocre player who has one iconic moment in his time with the team, and many fans clamor for his jersey to be retired because of it? 7. McCarty will be back to teach Commodore how to deal with all of his newfound fame as the expendable superstar? 8. Abby making 30-35 is pretty bold. It's not impossible, but he's in a situation where the only reasons he wasn't fourth line all year last year were injuries and the fact that Helm's line had great chemistry. He's less likely to get those offensive chances this year, with Hudler back on track and a speedier, more talented Mursak ready to go. 9. The sun will rise tomorrow. Seriously. 10. Conklin will start closer to 35 games. Howard's workload is going to start looking like what Ozzie used to carry in the 90s, otherwise he won't have anything for the playoffs. Ever notice that throughout history, a lot of great teams ran tandems? Edmonton did, Pittsburgh did, Detroit did, Montreal did, Toronto did. Historically running with a tandem has assisted the starting goaltender's playoff performance.

If we're comparing players' productions at certain ages, spanning many years, how about a 20 year-old Lindros vs. a 20 year-old Yzerman or Fedorov? Lindros was the best player in the world at age 20. Yzerman was just becoming a top player, and Fedorov was just entering the league and was a very good second-tier center.

It's a shame. If I did, we'd see Hudler average 35 minutes and he could score 250 points. /sarcasm

This question came down to two options for me. Hudler playing 20 games at center. or Cleary and Holmstrom both playing 75 games. The injury rate of Red Wing forwards and, and especially Clears and Homer, makes this one go towards Hudler in the middle.

The rumor was Yzerman AND Osgood, not just Yzerman. Which would have been a terrible mistake.

While Hudler and Datsyuk were together, Hudler outscored Datsyuk. That's an awfully interesting thing to happen during the same span you seem to be giving credit for his entire season's worth of production. Maybe you then agree that Hudler should be on the top line with Datsyuk, scoring crazy amounts of points instead of playing on a line with Abdelkader and Miller or whatever assembly you have planned.

In terms of raw talent, Hudler is the third most talented forward on the team. He had a terrible start o last year, and followed it up with a stellar second half. What most people are ultimately upset about is the fact that he is so talented, yet hasn't brought a huge year because of his size and speed. I'm expecting Filppula to start getting the same kind of hate soon; we're already seeing the "trade Flip for a real top-six forward and give Helm his job" stuff, and Flip has yet to really prove he can really be a second line center, when he's been paid like one for years. It's like Brian Rafalski. People loved the signing, until he got older and was not one of the top five or ten best defensemen in the league. Then he became an overpaid liability and the worst defenseman on the team, even though he was still getting Norris votes.

From Dec 2nd through Jan 22nd, Savard played 25 games and scored 2 goals and 8 assists. In that same time span, Hudler scored 3 goals and 8 assists in 24 games. Remarkably similar stats. You can go on about a non-concussed Savard, but what about a Hudler that hadn't gone to the KHL? Maybe he's an All-Star scorer and Selke contender. We don't have the "maybe what if" numbers. If you want those, we can get Jason Williams' injury history involved.

If healthy, he can be a top-six forward. The problem is, of course, the healthy thing.

Hemsky to the Wings would also completely remove the scapegoat and bench minor tags from Hudler's locker. Disagree; Hudler might make the most sense in a Hemsky deal, but trading for a forward in general I don't think so. I would say Filppula and Franzen are also on the table as big chips. If Holland is going after a top-end scoring forward like Shanahan was in the mid-90s, Holland's first choice would be Franzen given realistic options. He wouldn't want to cough up Smith AND high picks, and would probably rather keep Filppula if possible.

You know what I think I am going to do? Start a thread asking people to post third line players who suck because they are relied upon for offense and only puy up around 40 points in a given season. I don't think the list will be very long.

If Fedorov wasn't "the guy" every night, meaning he wasn't the Ducks' top player, and that means he didn't work hard... then I'd hate to see the report on Datsyuk's effort because he's Detroit's best player far less often. I'd say in the past two years Zetterberg and Lidstrom have been better than Dats more often when all three have been in the lineup.