eva unit zero

And if you'll look at my previous posts, I have said that the attitude was to ignore blatant mistakes if made by Conklin, and ignore anything amazing done by Osgood. Your post doesn't contradict that. It just suggests that the thread didn't feel Conklin was "outstanding", just "good" and that Conklin was okay. Both myself and Electrophile were more talking about the fact that people even very early in the thread had started with Osgood bashing ("that would have gone in and it would be 1-1 had Osgood been in net"), and were pointing out that Osgood gets bashed while Conklin plays, or Conklin can make the same mistake Osgood does and not get bashed for it.

No. They called icing against Detroit when Samuelsson was standing mostly behind the center line, but the puck was on the Nashville side of the ice. That's unforgivable, and I have to argue about goaltending in the GDT because of it.

His point, as I alluded to earlier, is that a significant portion of this board just ignores mistakes Conklin makes which they would crucify Osgood for, ignore saves Conklin makes when they would say "that's a goal if not for the great defense" if Osgood is the goaltender, and praise Conklin for great saves while saying that Osgood has spent his entire career as the product of a great defense. That is what Electrophile was getting at.

You mean for the Griffins, right?

Nice icing call. Wasn't aware that icing was based on where your skates were.

I wonder what Shea Weber sees in Kopecky...

You want good, balanced lines? Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Cleary/Hudler/Hossa Franzen/Filppula/Samuelsson

I wonder if we'll hear anything like that if Nashville scores a third goal.

Yeah, that's still two more chances than most of the team has had.

"Man, Conks has looked like s*** tonight. His rebound control has been horrible; he should be trapping those shots."

If you are referring to the Filppula/Kronwall for Horton/Bouwmeester deal, you are way off. Horton is a MUCH better forward than Filppula and is the same age. Flip is better defensively, but Horton is capable defensively. Bouwmeester is better than Kronwall at both ends. If that trade were made, and the Wings go with a Lidstrom/Rafalski/Stuart/Ericsson/Lilja/Meech/Lebda defense unit for next season, then the Wings have cleared up $1.1m in cap space and improved their forward corps. Now, how does swapping out Kronwall for Ericsson change the defense, and is the $1.1m enough extra space to retain all of Hossa/Hudler/Franzen? Even if it's not, it means allowing Franzen to walk as a UFA and replace him with Leino is much easier, and then the team is much younger as well while still having a power forward in Horton.

YG, you should check your information; Of any forward who has played a game for the Wings this season Tomas Kopecky has the lowest cap hit. So I don't know how you can claim "cheaper" unless you think his partial cap hit for having been in the minors most of the year would still make him cheaper if he had been here to start the season. Better is an opinion, and Kopecky still perhaps hasn't fully recovered from his injury so comparing his abilities to others is difficult.

Lapointe's Red Wing linemates went with him as part of his signing that contract?

If the entire lineup is healthy, then there are only two people on this roster who should be considered to center Marian Hossa. Those two people are our best playmakers. They are both natural centers. The worse of the two also happens to be 55% on faceoffs this season. If we make no roster-affecting trades, which is the most likely outcome, and we have a healthy lineup, then I would think that these lines are the best top-three units to use going into the postseason: Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom Cleary/Hudler/Hossa Franzen/Filppula/Samuelsson Helm/Draper/Kopecky Leino would serve as the best replacement for an injury on one of the first three lines, with Maltby as the next replacement (Helm or Kopecky would move to one of the top-three lines, with Maltby taking the fourth line spot) and finally Maltby would be the first replacement and Abdelkader the second if injuries were to fourth liners. Also a note; the only Wing who has hit more per game than Kopecky this season is Helm. So the commentary about benching Kopecky because at least Abdelkader hits is rather silly, as Kopecky hits more often.

One has to wonder if it's more about Montreal management and/or coaching not wanting Russians given the history with Russians in Montreal.

If Flip is traded, it is so that the Wings can keep Hossa. You have obviously indicated that Hudler would be retained. So either Hudler is centering Hossa, or DZH has been split up and Datsyuk is centering Hossa and Holmstrom with Zetterberg centering Hudler and Leino. Assuming the second situation, you have the option of matching either Datsyuk or Zetterberg. To finally match your point...do you really think Pittsburgh is going to put Crosby's line out against Leino/Hudler/Hossa? I think Pittsburgh would be more concerned with stopping DZH in the situation where Hudler is playing center...Crosby would probably get matched against Draper or Helm because they want him to be able to score, and you need the puck for that. EDIT: And also...your situation requires the Pens to outperform the Wings in the regular season next year, which is unlikely.

Lebda may be traded for picks/prospects because he is $650k and is the 8th best defenseman who currently has a contract for next season and would have to clear waivers to be sent to the AHL. Conklin will likely be signed by another team as a UFA to a multi-year contract above $3.5m per season because he has performed well, so for anyone on this board to even DREAM of keeping him is ridiculous. It's almost a given that one of Howard or Larsson will tandem with Osgood next season. We'll say Howard start as he has been the "goalie of the future" for a couple years now. So far, we've got 7 D for a cap hit of $22,833,333 and 2 G for a cap hit of $2,133,334, totalling up to 9 players with a cap hit of $24,966,667. Based on the $56.7m cap maximum for this season, that leaves $31,733,333 in cap space for the Wings to sign at least 12 forwards. The roster limit is 23 players, and we've already accounted for 9 non-forwards, so they can sign up to 14 forwards with the remaining cap space. As far as forwards, Meech can serve double-duty as the 7th defenseman and 13th forward to save cap space. This allows us to put together a 21-player roster and we only need to consider the 12 regular forwards, starting of course with those who are already signed. The forwards already signed for next season line up as follows: Datsyuk $6,700,000 Zetterberg $6,083,333 Filppula $3,000,000 Cleary $2,800,000 Holmstrom $2,250,000 Draper $1,583,333 Maltby $883,333 So we have seven forwards signed for next season who cannot be sent to the minors without clearing waivers. The total cap hit for those seven forwards is $23,299,999, leaving $8,433,334 to fill the final five forward spots. Also left to fill the final five forward spots from the current roster? Marian Hossa Jiri Hudler Johan Franzen Mikael Samuelsson Tomas Kopecky Kopecky can be expected to sign for the league minimum of $525k. I don't expect the Wings to be able to find a better player than Kopecky for that price, so expect him on the roster. Leaving $7,904,334 to sign the other four forwards. Doesn't seem terribly possible, does it? Samuelsson can likely be retained for something like a 3-year deal with a cap hit of $1.375m per season, which is significantly less than what it would cost to acquire a replacement. This leaves $6,533,334 cap space to sign three more forwards, including whichever of Hossa/Hudler/Franzen are retained. So some possible situations are: 1) Hossa is not retained. Hudler, Franzen, and Leino or Helm are the last three forwards. 2) The Wings make a trade to clear cap space involving one or more of Filppula/Cleary/Kronwall/Stuart and are able to retain Hossa, Hudler, and Franzen as well as replace the traded players with young players such as Leino, Helm, and Kindl or with players acquired in the trade who are better players but have a cap hit close to the league minimum. 3) Hossa, Hudler, and Franzen all sign for significantly less than their "market value" and the Wings are able to fit them within their cap constraints. Most likely, we will be looking at Option #2, with Filppula being traded for picks and/or prospects/players who can be sent to the minors without clearing waivers. So open now, assuming Flip alone was traded: 4 forward slots, $9,533,334. This allows the Wings to sign Hossa for the same cap hit as Zetterberg, leaving 3 forward slots and $3,450,001. Let's look at the likely lines for a second to consider what moves need to be made. If Hudler is signed and Franzen is not: Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Leino/Hudler/Hossa Cleary/Helm/Samuelsson Maltby/Draper/Kopecky Meech No Filppula, but two very lethal scoring lines at the top and the third line is a strong two-way line. If Franzen is signed and Hudler is not: Holmstrom/Datsyuk/Hossa Franzen/Zetterberg/Samuelsson Cleary/Helm/Leino Maltby/Draper/Kopecky Meech ZDH are split up, and the way the lines work out just doesn't seem to be as solid as the previous unit. If both are signed: Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Leino/Hudler/Hossa Cleary/Franzen/Samuelsson Maltby/Draper/Kopecky Meech Despite the fact I would rather have Franzen on one of the top two lines, and would rather have Helm in the lineup than Meech, Franzen centering a checking unit that is also capable of being an offensive threat while Leino serves as the second winger on a Hudler/Hossa line is a better option, and Meech makes a better thirteenth forward than Helm does. I would rather not have to trade Flip, but that doesn't seem terribly realistic. The ideal situation would be that the Wings could trade Cleary and Stuart and get past those no-trade clauses. Trading Stuart might result in Lebda staying around for depth, with a difference of $3.1m in cap space opened up.

I am not aware of a great player in the history of the Red Wings who began his career elsewhere who has been considered for jersey retirement. Given that most jersey retirement has happened recently, this would mean league-elite players like Syd Howe, Harry Lumley, and Normie Smith would have had their jerseys retired in the 90s when Sawchuk, etc. were retired. Except those players didn't begin their NHL careers with Detroit, despite playing almost their entire NHL careers with Detroit as star players on the team and in the league. Further evidence is that players who played well enough for the Wings to potentially earn retirement who didn't begin their careers in Detroit have seen their numbers given away (Shanahan), while players who began their career with Detroit and played well enough to perhaps argue for jersey retirement at some point have seen their jersey numbers set aside (Osgood) which indicates that the organization considers beginning your career with Detroit a requirement for jersey retirement.

A note for everyone on this topic; Chris Osgood, by the time he retires, will be the franchise leader in every significant goaltending statistic. He already is the leader or is almost the leader when it comes to playoff statistics. Arguing that Osgood doesn't/won't deserve to have his number retired is absolutely ridiculous when you consider that the ONLY goaltender who has compared to him in terms of Red Wings career has his number retired, and Osgood has a few years left to put up some more numbers.

No player has ever been even considered for having his jersey retired in Detroit without starting his career in Detroit. This eliminates: From your list: #8 Syd Howe #14 Brendan Shanahan #39 Dominik Hasek From the OP's list: #18 Kirk Maltby #33 Kris Draper

Looking at it right now, the guys who deserve to have their numbers retired based on their Red Wings career as it stands right now are as follows: #2 Jack Stewart, D #4 Red Kelly, D #5 Nicklas Lidstrom, D #6 Larry Aurie, RW #30 Chris Osgood, G #91 Sergei Fedorov, C After those guys, there are a couple other banners possibly deserving of being hung for players whose numbers are or would have already been retired. #1 Johnny Mowers, G #1 Roger Crozier, G #5 Ebbie Goodfellow, D #7 Norm Ullman, C A note: I did not include anyone on these lists who did not begin their career with Detroit. Hence the exclusion of guys like Syd Howe, Brendan Shanahan, Harry Lumley, and others.

Fedorov at his best was Ovechkin's goal scoring, Datsyuk's playmaking, and physical game, Carbonneau's defensive game, Draper's faceoffs, Mike Gartner's speed. As far as puckhandling, he could deke as well as Datsyuk. He could also skate faster than anyone I have ever seen during my life while carrying the puck; rivaled by a few names who were great skaters and puckhandlers: Russ Courtnall, Paul Coffey, Pavel Bure, Alexander Mogilny, and very few others have even come close during my 29 years. Here I think you make a mistake. Fedorov one on one was not just great. He was incredible. I don't know that he was better than Datsyuk...but Datsyuk certainly wasn't much better than Fedorov, if at all. I say this because Fedorov was among the best one-on-one players in the NHL. I would say the Sergei of his prime was head and shoulders above Datsyuk. Why? Because he was head and shoulders above everyone. He was very arguably the best offensive player AND best defensive player in the world. That's unheard of. Pavel is among the better offensive players and better defensive players right now but he doesn't dominate at both ends on a nightly basis the way Sergei did in his late 20s. But it's unlikely, as Pavel is already 30 and is probably at his peak and will likely not get much better than his is now. If Fedorov were playing in today's NHL from the ages of 25-30, he'd likely have had a few 100+ point seasons while being a Selke finalist every year. That's how dominant Fedorov was. Think about Zetterberg this season for a second. In terms of skill, Z and Dats are VERY close both offensively and defensively; the primary difference is that Z is a better shooter and Dats is a better playmaker. This season, however, Dats has been placed primarily in a role of "playmaker" on the first line, while Zetterberg has been placed in a role of "stopper" on the second line. This caused a great difference in their stats. Some people have used this to say "Datsyuk is obviously better and Zetterberg needed Datsyuk" rather than recognizing the roles. Since they have been put back together, both players have been scoring very well, with Zetterberg still serving as the primary defensive role as he did on the line before. Fedorov played as that defensive stopper Zetterberg was serving as EVERY season, yet still was scoring a point per game and among the league leaders in scoring in a much weaker league offensively

Quite simple, really; because Cleary makes 200k less, and the underlying tenet of the argument is that someone may have to be traded to maintain the salary cap if Hossa is kept; Cleary has a no-trade-clause in his contract and less trade value than Filppula.

Let's look at who has similar even strength ice time and power play ice time to Hudler, and what scoring output they have. Highlighted in red are those who Hudler scored at a higher points per minute rate than; likely it's not limited to just those players I've listed. Even Strength TOI/Scoring (187) Nikolai Kulemin 591:37 / 8g-5a-13pt (188) Pavol Demitra 591:19 / 12g-11a-23pt (189) Tom Kostopoulos 590:01 / 5g-9a-14pt (190) Maxime Talbot 590:00 / 5g-6a-11pt (191) Doug Weight 589:38 / 4g-10a-14pt (192) Todd Fedoruk 585:26 / 5g-3a-8pt (193) Mason Raymond 584:10 / 5g-5a-10pt (194) Dustin Byfuglien 582:10 / 6g-6a-12pt (195) Robert Lang 581:04 / 9g-11a-20pt (196) Adam Mair 580:46 / 7g-8a-15pt (197) Jiri Hudler 580:01 / 13g-11a-24pt (.041 points/minute at even strength) (187) Scottie Upshall 577:41 / 4g-11a-15pt (188) Robert Zednik 577:22 / 10g-10a-20pt (189) Jay Pandolfo 572:01 / 3g-5a-8pt (190) Jerred Smithson 570:50 / 3g-6a-9pt (191) Kyle Calder 570:03 / 5g-12a-17pt (192) Trent Hunter 568:03 / 9g-11a-20pt (193) Chuck Kobasew 564:57 / 9g-13a-22pt (194) Chris Thorburn 564:04 / 6g-5a-11pt (195) Taylor Pyatt 564:02 / 7g-6a-13pt (196) David Moss 563:26 / 9g-9a-18pt Power Play TOI/Scoring (64) Corey Perry 186:56 / 7g-12a-19pt (65) Pavel Datsyuk 185:50 / 10g-14a-24pt (.129 points/minute on power play) (66) Bryan Little 181:32 / 7g-7a-14pt (67) Mark Recchi 181:15 / 2g-14a-16pt (68) Stephen Weiss 180:05 / 3g-11a-14pt (69) Patrik Berglund 178:02 / 6g-11a-17pt (70) Marian Hossa 177:36 / 9g-12a-21pt (71) Travis Zajac 175:52 / 3g-7a-10pt (72) Pierre-Marc Bouchard 175:13 / (73) Trent Hunter 174:28 / 5g-5a-10pt (74) Jiri Hudler 173:01 / 5g-17a-22pt (.127 points/minute on power play) (75) Alexander Frolov 172:48 / 9g-7a-16pt (76) Peter Mueller 172:14 / 5g-5a-10pt (77) Miroslav Satan 171:53 / 6g-4a-10pt (78) Henrik Zetterberg 171:22 / 7g-13a-20pt (79) Nathan Horton 171:18 / 3g-7a-10pt (80) Rod Brind'Amour 171:01 / 3g-11a-14pt (81) Jamie Langenbrunner 170:48 / 2g-8a-10pt (82) Tomas Plekanec 170:38 / 2g-4a-6pt (83) Andrei Kostitsyn 168:15 / 5g-6a-11pt (84) Nikolai Zherdev 165:37 / 4g-6a-10pt Notable names: ES: Demitra, Lang, Zednik, Hunter, Kobasew. PP: Perry, Datsyuk, Hossa, Zetterberg. Also of note is that Hunter plays similar time again but is FAR less productive. Datsyuk, on the PP, is the only player to play similar minutes and outproduce Hudler. This is only slightly. Interesting information, don't you think?

Franzen didn't become a "power forward" until he was nearly 30 and was placed on a line with Pavel Datsyuk. Hate to break it to you, but the Wings could take a big-bodied young forward with a decent skating and puck skills and put him on Dats' wing and they'd suddenly have a 'bonafide power forward' like Franzen. After all, that's what happened with Johan. Franzen would be a third or fourth line defensive grinder on most teams because they wouldn't have even looked at him as a goal scorer. By comparison, Hudler was considered the most purely skilled center in his draft going into it.