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And what I was saying is that he didn't get that reputation until after his holdout. He wasn't a different player after his holdout. If anything, he was more of a veteran leader in those years than he was in the years before it. Another thing; Ovechkin is mentioned as 'not fitting' the Russian stereotype of a lazy, talented player who takes nights off. He used to have that reputation, and then it went away. Do you know WHY it went away? Because Washington acquired Sergei Fedorov, and Ovechkin spent time with him. He was considered important in every aspect to the Ducks, and didn't get the "lazy Russian" label. It is confined to his time with the Wings from 1997 through 2002. Meaning that it is fan bitterness, not objective analysis. I wonder though; Fedorov played for Babcock and they seemed to do well together. Could Sergei be a good pickup, even if he's not the player he once was?

Have I ever claimed Hudler achieved a full-season statistical mark (such as 40 goals) he never actually reached? Anyone? Thought so.

I said "a second liner, ideally a power forward". If I were saying he was a power forward, I'd have simply said "A second line power forward". Think. You're smart. Use your brain.

If you don't want responses, don't post. I'd call you champ, but you have yet to earn it.

Calling that for White is not bold. It's logical analysis. Ericsson will steady his play and play more physical, but he'll still be on the third pairing. He might even get himself played out of the lineup if Kindl really breaks out. Awfully bold to predict Franzen to have *another* 40+ year, when his career high is 34. Or awfully stupid. Hudler having a 50+ season may be considered bold but is certainly not unreasonable. Mursak will likely take Miller's spot by December.

Not as good as the one great game he had this season before he decided to go home for the summer. No, Kopecky was not a power forward. Neither is Franzen. You missed the "ideally" part. Kopecky was a guy who was learning to use his body, and was developing his skills. Had he played those years on a Philly or Anaheim, he might have formed into an intimidating physical player. Instead, he played with guys who play a highly effective skill-based game, and he followed that track more than he should have. The same is true of Franzen. As for his role; he was mostly a third liner in the regular season, but he played mostly on a line with Sharp and Hossa in the postseason. He was acquired as a depth player and played himself up into the role; Kopecky was a major reason the Hawks felt comfortable trading Ladd and Versteeg. If they hadn't been able to get Brunette to fill his shoes, they'd have had a major hole in their secondary. And I think you'll be very surprised about his Florida performance.

Fedorov was not the stereotypical Russian player, as you put it. He certainly had that reputation after his holdout in the late 90s, but that was more due to fan bitterness and the fact that he wasn't living up to the ridiculous money that the first year of that contract paid him with the playoff bonuses. Fans were expecting him to score 150 points and win the Selke all in 20 games, and he was "merely" one of the league's top forwards. He scored at a higher per-game pace than his 96-97 mark every year following that holdout until he left Detroit. He was a hard working all-around player who was accurate in his assessment that he didn't get nearly the credit for his on-ice performance that he deserved. Anyway, you say Ovy and Dats break the stereotype, but Fedorov fits the bill. Let's hear that argument.

So you want to see how he would do playing in a third or fourth line role with no special teams? Why don't we try that with Johan Franzen. See what he does. He has spent most of the past few years on a line with either Datsyuk or Zetterberg, and has only beaten Kopecky's numbers from last year twice. If Franzen is an elite scorer, that makes Kopecky a solid second-liner, right? He's not too different from Franzen physically or defensively. Franzen is a much better goal scorer, but Kopy is a better playmaker. If Kopy had Patrick Eaves' shot, he might be the better player.

If I recall correctly, I was calling for Lebda to be removed from the roster in favor of Meech, and then waived in favor of Quincey. Others here were fine with him, and then wanted to send Chelios packing despite the fact that he was actually effective, unlike Lebda. I don't always simply support the hated players. I simply look at the player's performance and figure "This guy performs well/ok/excellent" or "He's got solid potential that he's not given credit for." or things like that. And for the record, more than 90% of LGWers said Kopecky would never be more than a fourth-liner in the NHL. I said that he would be a second-liner, ideally a power forward, probably playing on the wing. He played that EXACT role on the 2010 Stanley Cup Champion Chicago Blackhawks. Now he's in Florida and expected to perform in a top-six role there, perhaps even as a leader, bringing Cup experience and all-around play to a roster which is short on both. But yes, I just pick guys who are disliked and defend them.

Due to health. Is Johan Franzen a 30-goal scorer? He's only done it once. I'd argue the opinion about Franzen on here is more outlandish than mine about Hudler; Franzen is called an elite goal scorer and a star winger, yet he (like Williams) has never scored 60 points. In fact, as you are so stuck on the "projection" factor, here's something for you. Jason Williams has posted a .61 (50 in 82) or better PPG in three seasons with 40+ games played, and .49 (30 in 82) twice more. Franzen has achieved the same. Williams averaged 65 games in his 5 seasons, Franzen averaged 66 games in his 5 seasons. So we're not talking about a significant difference in performance, offensively, in their five best seasons. Nor are we talking about a significant difference in games played. Was Franzen ever elite? Was Williams? Or maybe both were, or still are, solid first/second line forwards. Franzen, like Williams, has been terrible defensively outside of his first season, when he played a defensive role and focused on defense. The when he became a scorer, he pretty much gave it up. He's IMHO gotten progressively worse in that area, actually. So if a prime Williams spent a whole, healthy season next to Datsyuk, how much might he bring? The argument against Hudlr is that he's slow. Williams has a similar shot to Hudler, has speed, but doesn't have the playmaking skills. Hudler has certainly done well on Datsyuk's wing when given the chance. As has Filppula. Why wouldn't Williams have done well? Perhaps even better than Franzen has been in the same role? It's speculation and can't happen now, but the stats suggest that Williams, who is younger, was equal to, if not superior than, Franzen offensively. EDIT: Also, with regards to Gretzky; he had scored 180+ points six of the seven previous seasons. Four saw him break 200, and another he hit 196. So even with Gretzky being the most prolific scorer ever, he was never able to come anywhere NEAR what he did in those few years, from the very moment he left Edmonton. His seven highest point totals of his career were in Edmonton. Williams, on the other hand, remained fairly consistent despite bouncing around; playing a bit below his average in Atlanta and a bit above in Columbus. So if anything, that shows that Williams could have been more relied upon to put up no more or less than his "normal" levels. Why do I say this? Gretzky's worst two seasons in Edmonton were his rookie year (tied for league lead with 137) and 87-88 (second with 149) and you ask me "So what", so I'll tell you. He was traded at the age of 27. He only cleared the 137 mark three times after leaving Edmonton; his first three years there. He only cleared the 149 mark twice. His third-worst season in Edmonton? 164, which he only cleared in LA his first year there; and made history alongside Bernie Nicholls as the only teammates to both score 150 points or more. I find it hard to believe that Gretzky's prime ended in 1988, at the age of 27. Steve Yzerman and Mario Lemieux each had some of their best seasons at or after that age.

"per 82 games." Just as in Wayne Gretzky's career, up until the LA trade in 1988, he had scored 583 goals and 1086 assists in 696 games, an average of 67-125-192 per 80 games. Is it realistic to expect those those totals in LA? The closest he came was 13 goals away in 88-89, 3 assists away in 90-91, and 24 points away in 88-89. I said Williams averaged those totals, and that he could be an unexpectedly effective scorer for Pittsburgh if he is given time in that role. I didn't say "Williams will score 50 points if he plays 80 games" or anything like that. As you said, he's only done it once. But the REASON he's only done it once is health, not performance. If he's healthy, and scores like he did from 2005-06 through 2008-09, he certainly is capable of that kind of output.

Williams averaged over 20 goals and 50 points every 82 games he played from 2005-06 through 2008-09. It didn't affect his play, but it might have affected his health. In 2009-10 and 2010-11 his production slipped considerably compared to that average, although he didn't play many games or many minutes. If he gets a scoring role in Pittsburgh, he could post excellent numbers and be one of if not the best signing of the offseason.

It's the same as saying a guy who scores 45 points in 42 games every year for four years is a point per game player. I didn't say he was a GUARANTEED 50+ point-per-game player if he played a full season. I said that he averaged 51 points every 82 games he played. He played around 280 games. Wayne Gretzky scored well over a point-per-game (full 84 game season of 121) in 1992-93. Steve Yzerman's PPG would have placed him third overall with 119 points on a full season in 1993-94. Would they have reached those numbers? Maybe. But Williams actually DID average the numbers I stated. It's not a projection, it's a fact.

Jiri Hudler? Sergei Fedorov? Slava Kozlov? I don't remember any of those three talking s*** on their way to the KHL. A lot of others who went there quietly made the move also. Maybe a few high profile stars said something, either of their own accord or after being incited into it, but it's a small sample.

Which also makes a lot more sense, as Brunette fills the same kind of "utility offense" role Kopecky does, but has a wicked shot and has been a top-line offensive player for years. Brunette is also excellent with his hands and can fill the net-front spot Kopecky had been playing. I wouldn't be shocked if he has a very good season in Chicago, given the environment surrounding him. He has rarely played with other skilled forwards and skilled defenseman at the same time. Perry was embarrassed by losing to Dats... one could say that is retribution enough.

Bryzgalov and Bure??? Bure was far more likely to have a lazy shift or night than Kovalev, and Bryzgalov fits the stereotype more closely than any high-profile Russian in the past twenty years.

Joey was underrated. He posted a solid passer rating despite a weak team. On a team with better protection and receivers, he could have been an annual Pro-Bowler. Case in point; he's ranked 128th of all qualified quarterbacks in career passer rating. That's better than Joe Namath. Another interesting fact? Charlie Batch is 70th, in the neighborhood of Harbaugh, Theismann, McMahon, Simms, and Unitas.

Williams' 58 point season was his highest point total season in that span, but he scored 36 in 43 for Chicago in 2007-08 - pace for close to 70 points on a full healthy season, and 47 in 80 games between Atlanta and Columbus (29 in 39 in Columbus) in 2008-09. So Williams' offensive output was pretty consistent as a 50+ point player, aside from his 2006-07 season when he scored a measly 32 points. As for the "Eva math" comment; that 20-31-51 is his total output from 2005-06 through 2008-09, averaged down to 82 games. It's not the "let's project 11 games to 82" that I am often criticized for.

I think Kovalev doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves. In Pittsburgh he was the team's best player as often as not, but instead was vilified for the occasional bad games he had. Meanwhile, Jaromir Jagr, whose history of work ethic and defensive responsibility is no better than Kovalev's, received nothing but praise.

At the time he was brought back, Williams was a top-six forward. His post-lockout average before coming back to Detroit was 20 goals and 31 assists per 82 games. That's a top six forward. He might not be able to play at that level now, but he was there then. Lebda/Kolosov as a second pair in Grand Rapids? Sure.

Williams was a cheap scorer who had been far more successful both in Detroit his first go and after leaving than he was the year he came back. It was a good move up front which simply didn't pan out. I am willing to bet that he has a resurgent season this year; he turns 31 this week and so he still has plenty of mileage. Williams is also a much better player than Lebda; Lebda is a weak third-pair defenseman while Williams was a top-six forward. It's not at all the same situation. I can see Chicago making a move for him to replace Campbell, though on the hype he apparently carries.

There are four better Chicago forwards than Patrick Kane.

Maybe it does. Maybe he's saying "Howard was awesome all year, except for a few games which he stunk serious butt in. And because he was so bad in those games, it skewed his GAA upwards by a goal and a half."

Stefan was an average goaltender. It was stranger seeing Bob Rouse, Doug Houda, Jesse Wallin, or Andreas Lilja wearing #3 after Steve Chiasson, who was briefly one of the league's best. Cory Cross wearing #4 after Mark Howe and Red Kelly was just a disgusting sight. Datsyuk taking on Kozlov's number was a bit less acceptable, but still acceptable. Kozlov was never one of Detroit's best players; he was always outshined by at minimum Fedorov and Yzerman, as well as some combination of Shanahan, Primeau, Sheppard, Ciccarelli, and Larionov. He was usually the fourth or fifth best forward on the team in any given year. And beyond that, there were Lidstrom, Konstantinov, Chelios, Coffey, Fetisov, and Chiasson on defense and Osgood and Vernon in goal. Kozlov attaining any kind of significant status in Detroit was not happening, despite his performance. He had a couple of seasons where he was among the league's top left wingers. When he left Detroit, he continued to star in this fashion, and finally started to get recognized as his teammates did not overshadow him the way guys like Fedorov, Yzerman, and Lidstrom will overshadow just about anyone. Had Kozlov been drafted by a weak team, he might have seen much better recognition for his performance. But Osgood, however, is well beyond that. The only Red Wings goaltender who can be argued as better is Terry Sawchuk. His number hangs from the rafters. Osgood holds a number of Wings records, and will be a Hall of Famer. Only nine goalies have played more games with a single team. None of them can boast better winning percentages. Of all goaltenders with 275 games played or more with a single team, only George Hainsworth, Bill Durnan, Jacques Plante, and Ken Dryden can boast better winning percentages. And that is, interestingly enough, the list of starting goaltenders for the Montreal Canadiens from 1927 until 1979. They all came from a team that dominated the league, mostly during a time when acquiring a player was basically a "first-come, first-served" process except for local territories, which was given a special rule that was modified throughout the years that allowed it to protect a various amount of unsigned, undrafted Quebecois talent from other NHL teams. All of those Montreal goalies joined a team that was already a Cup champion. If the Wings had traded Osgood and Drake for Essensa and Bautin, not made the Vernon deal, and then continued on the next couple of seasons with Chevy in net, do you think they go to the finals in 95 or win the Cup in 97?

Hudler stays, and Detroit doesn't sign Bertuzzi or Williams. Instead, the remaining forward spot is filled by a fourth line grinder or not at all. If we assume the KHL excursion to be the cause of Jiri's problems last year, which is implied by his resurgence in the second half (he was 3rd on the team in scoring after the midway mark) then we could rightly assume that his performance in 2008-09 would have carried over to 2009-10. Which would have helped the Wings more than the combined contributions of Bertuzzi and Williams. And development of Hudler in an NHL environment that year would have led to an even greater help this past season. So Hudler leaving did not help the team, except in the cap space department.