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Jari Kurri was twice named to the NHL's First All-Star team. That's two more First All-Star selections, meaning he was the BEST player at his position, than Adam Oates, Doug Gilmour, and Dino Ciccarelli COMBINED. For your reference, since you didn't seem to understand it, that's the 'top five' I was throwing out. The voting for the postseason All-Star teams. Because typically if a player wasn't considered among the best at his position (Ciccarelli) he doesn't make the Hall. Now sit down and compare Jari Kurri to Dino Ciccarelli for a second. Kurri scored 50+ goals several times, 100+ points several times, and yes he did it with Wayne Gretzky, but he did it as Wayne Gretzky's defensive safety valve. Kurri was a Selke contender every year. Ciccarelli played defense less during his career than Kurri did in a single season, and still scored less often. Sorry, I know he was a fan favorite around here. So was Darren McCarty. Doesn't put them in the Hall. As far as Oates is concerned, in the 92-93 season he had two 30-goal scorers playing on his wing for the majority of the year; and in Neely's 13 games he scored 11 goals. It's not like he was alone on his line. He also had Ray Bourque and Glen Wesley manning the points on the power play. Oates was a very good center...but for the time period over his career, from 1985 to 2005, He doesn't crack the top 3; that group is Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman. Beyond that filling out the top six, there's Messier, Fedorov, and Sakic. Maybe rounding out the top ten could be argued, but even then he has some pretty stiff competition from guys like Forsberg, Sundin, LaFontaine, Modano as well as less-heralded but productive names like Gilmour, Francis, Hawerchuk, Roenick, Nieuwendyk, Turgeon, Nicholls. Oates lack of significant awards, history of being the playmaker for the big goal scorer, and the fact that he himself generally was not a goal scorer could end up hurting him in HOF voting as typically playmakers get s*** on in the court of public opinion. The public man-crush on Cam Neely can't help him either, as if Cam was so great, then it must mean Adam was less great as he went from mediocre, to a great performance alongside the Hart trophy winner (Hull) to another great performance alongside CAM!!, to...what? Obviously this means he sucks and was the product of the great wingers he had.

None of those guys instantly scream Hall of Famer. All can have arguments made for them. The biggest ones are guys like Zubov, Bure, Forsberg, and Kariya who were among the top players at their position for several seasons. Guys like Nieuwendyk and Turgeon were really considered second-tier centers in the late 80s/early 90ss period behind guys like Lemieux, Gretzky, Yzerman, Fedorov, Modano, LaFontaine, Francis, Gilmour, Oates, Sundin, etc. and that will hurt them as far as HHOF consideration. They never were able to separate themselves from the pack and earn any sort of accolades, or distinguish themselves in any way that really proved them to be better than 'good players on good teams' which isn't good enough for the Hall.

In six games last season where both players played defense... Meech played more minutes four times. Meech was 0-2-2, -4 compared to Ericsson's 1-0-1, -3. Certainly hard to argue that Ericsson did more in their shared time, and Meech was the one getting more time during those six games so it's hard to say that the coaches felt Ericsson was helping the team more as he wasn't playing more.

Oates, Gilmour, and Dino were rarely among the top three or four players at their position. Sundin was usually one of the best three or four centers in the league. Sundin was also one of the best three or four centers in the league when his scoring winger was a guy like Jonas Hoglund or Mikael Renberg most seasons, not Brett Hull or Cam Neely. Ciccarelli was rarely ever one of the best players at his position and this was at a weaker position. Dino had one top-five showing, fifth-place, for postseason all-star voting. That's all. Oates had three top-five showings; a second-place and two fourth-place showings. Gilmour? Two thirds, both of which came with top-three left winger Dave Andreychuk. Sundin has, to-date, posted a fifth-place and two-second place showings. That's better than any of the other three. Gilmour's Selke is the only significant award or achievement any of the other three have that Sundin does not, and Sundin is the only onf of the four who has been a consistent threat both in terms of scoring goals and setting them up despite the fact that he has had the least to work with in terms of linemates, I would say he is easily the best bet of the four as far as the HOF. Sundin also is playing at an elite level later in his career than the other three were; as the other three were only elite or close to it for a very short period during their primes while Sundin has been a top player in the NHL for over a decade. Hall of Famer.

Neely would've if he had remained healthy. That 'Would've' got him enough sympathy to actually get him in. Sundin actually HAD a HOF career, and now people are looking for reasons to keep him out. Seriously. That's f***ed up.

And amazingly, I can debunk ALL TEN of those reasons with JUST the following two words: Cam Neely.

Not really sure what people are expecting out of Sammy. He has played 197 games playing mostly second and third line time over the past three seasons, and he has scored 48 goals and 71 assists in that time frame. That's an average of 16 goals, 24 assists, and 40 points in 66 games per season. For a strong defensive player who, while not a physical force, is capable of holding his own physically due in part to his large frame size. He is an above-average skater as well. Someone seriously needs to explain exactly what it is that people don't like about Samuelsson...because this has been his AVERAGE contributiion over the past three seasons. For reference, his entire cap hit over that period has $2,937,500. I challenge this board to find any player over the age of 20 who can boast comparable offensive numbers AND defensive game in the NHL to Samuelsson over the past three years whose price tag is not significantly greater. I'll give you a hint; there is none.

Never a real line. Stevens was only on Lemieux's line through the 93-94 season. Jagr first played regularly with Mario in 95-96. You are likely thinking of what is actually the greatest line in Penguins history, and did feature Lemieux and Jagr. The only difference is that the center on the line was Ron Francis. They played together for almost the entire 1995-96 season with Lemieux on the left wing (his first-team center selection notwithstanding) and finished 1-2-3 in scoring. Francis was also second in Selke voting.

I would say no to Nabokov for Osgood straight up. Make it Brodeur and maybe we'll talk.

The only McFarlane I have is a series 1 Yzerman still in the box that is sitting on my desk that was a gift from my days as a writer years ago from the short-lived website Hockeyjunkies.com.

Hudler is the best playmaker we have after those two to pair with Hossa. And given the fact that DZH stayed together at times when they probably should have been split, I expect Hossa to start apart from Dats and Z.

Kopecky is not terribly valuable to the team. But a major difference? Kopecky is a big, skilled kid with a decent all-around game. He's also young. Downey and McCarty are old fourth-liners with no offensive or defensive skill. Kopecky is far from necessary, but certainly more valuable to the Wings than Downey. It's like sunglasses vs sunscreen on summer day. Which is more necessary? Well, obviously neither are absolutely necessary, but sunscreen is more important than sunglasses.

It's being centered by a center who was called the most talented center in his draft class.

I expect us to be starting the season with something similar to: Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Cleary/Hudler/Hossa Franzen/Filppula/Samuelsson Maltby/Draper/McCarty Lidstrom/Rafalski Kronwall/Stuart Lebda/Lilja The only difference between that and the roster that just won the Cup is that we swap out Drake for Hossa and what was our second line becomes the third line. If you seriously think that Dallas Drake had more effect on the Cup win than Hossa would, you are not a good scout.

Hm... McCarty played most of this year's Cup run. He seems to be considered an enforcer by this group's standard. Do you SERIOUSLY feel he helped the Wings more than, say, anyone else on the roster? McCarty was the least important player to skate in a playoff game. Even Hasek had more importance to the playoff run.

I would argue that Ullman compares well with Abel and Delvecchio...

Nor were they Hossa's regular linemates. In Ottawa and Atlanta Hossa saw second line duty while Heatley saw the team stack the best players on the first line. It makes me wonder whether Heatley demanded playing time on the first line for him to sign. The Penguins fans were arguing Hossa as the BEST defensive forward. He's good, but fourth or fifth on the Wings at best as you said.

I would rather have Wendel Clark than Cam Neely, who is in the Hall. Neither belongs there unless you are considering what they would have done without injury, in which case both belong there. Wendel Clark vs Cam Neely is like another early 90s comparison; Gary Roberts vs Kevin Stevens. All four guys were offensively dominant and capable of fighting anyone. One guy in each pair was slightly better offensively, but the other was MUCH better defensively AND could play multiple positions--and was the overall better player.

That we would have to reach to the most offensively dominant player ever on the most offensively talented team ever in the most offensively oriented time in league history to do a straight comparison of Hossa's PPG to call him not a playoff performer pretty much proves my point. If you have to be Gretzky-level offensively every postseason to be considered 'always' a playoff performer, then nobody has done it and everyone in league history is a playoff bust.

Now reconcile the fact that Hossa and Kovalchuk usually played on different lines and therefore regardless of whether Kovalchuk was comparable, he wasn't a regular linemate and has no bearing on this conversation. But since you are so hung up on the 'always' comment.... Name me a player in NHL history who never had a 'down' playoff offensively as compared to his other playoffs, and was considered a star two-way player like Hossa. Then you can trash my 'always' remark.

No. Fighting 3 times a game does NOT automatically make you a winning team. You can win and fight, or win and not fight, or lose and fight, or lose and not fight. The question was whether uk would prefer "lose and fight" to "win and not fight" as the standard Wings game.

The 2006-07 Atlanta Thrashers' top-three in regular season scoring (the only season Hossa went to the playoffs as a Thrasher) Marian Hossa: 82 GP, 43g-57a-100pt Slava Kozlov: 81 GP, 28g-52a-80pt Ilya Kovalchuk: 82 GP, 42g-34a-76pt How about total scoring line, Hossa vs Kovalchuk, in the past three seasons in an Atlanta uniform? Marian Hossa: 222 GP, 108g-140a-248pt, 1.12PPG Ilya Kovalchuk: 239 GP, 146g-115a-261pt, 1.09 PPG So what does "UMMM Kovalchuk?" exactly mean? Hossa outperformed Kovalchuk offensively, and is better defensively. Oh, and they were usually on different lines.

I'll rephrase it slightly. "He's always been among the best playoff performers on his team." Better?

So what you're saying is... Hossa's big season doesn't count because he was playing with Crosby, but Lecavalier, who was consistently third ON HIS LINE in scoring, doesn't get discounted for having always played with more productive players? Even though the gap between Hossa's production and Crosby's was much smaller than that between Lecavalier and Richards/St.Louis. I will also remind you...this is the FIRST season Hossa has had a linemate with equal or greater ability than his own. Lecavalier played with two of them, consistently. Why does Lecavalier get a free pass on the 'playing with...' thing while Hossa does not? I pointed out that Hossa was at the top of his team consistently because it backed up the idea that he was the best playoff performer on his team. Lecavalier has never led his LINE in scoring. Yet nobody has ever called Vinny a playoff bust; an accusation which has hounded Hossa since Ottawa.

Ok, then the fact that he has better career points-per-game in the postseason than Vinny surely makes Vinny a total playoff bust also.