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I have to disagree with this. One need only look at the type of players drafted from 1998-2008 and the priority given to them as compared to 1994-1997 to know that Holland, not Bowman, is in charge. Bowman drafted very poorly as the Wings (effective) GM. The two best players Bowman drafted? Tomas Holmstrom and Mathieu Dandenault. This is compared with Holland drafting Fischer and Datsyuk in his first year. Zetterberg the next year. Kronwall the season after. Holland has had much better drafting success than Bowman did with the same scouts, and the switch in philosophy and success happened overnight and coincided with the changing of hands in the GM office. Bowman doesn't run the show in Detroit.

Did you just imply that Pavel DATSYUK is, was, or ever will be a better skater or puckhandler than SERGEI FEDOROV was in his prime? No. Not even close. Datsyuk might not even be top five among the skaters on the team. He's probably the best puckhandler. Fedorov was the best at both in the entire league, with only a handful of guys who could even make an argument against him at either. And as far as defense...Fedorov was FAR better defensively than Datsyuk is. I would argue that they are still not too different in terms of defensive ability now.

I win. Close the thread.

When NN asks for a first line of Janney/Turgeon/Gretzky, you can say he's in favor of softies. So far, he seems to be on the same page as I am, which is that it's much more important to have guys capable of playing hockey who don't disappear when the hits start coming than it is to have one or two guys who can't play hockey, but boy can he punch. You know, the Jiri Hudler vs Aaron Downey argument.

I didn't say best. I said average. The Russian 5 was arguably better than Datsyuk's typical 5-man unit because of? SERGEI FEDOROV. Both units have the best defenseman in the game at the time. We'll call that even, even though most in this thread have been dissing Vladdy hardcore. Now let's compare the rest, minus Feds v Dats. Russian 5 has Kozlov/Larionov/Fetisov. The current unit has Zetterberg, Rafalski, and Holmstrom. There is not even a contest there regarding who has had better units to play with. When Fedorov didn't have a "big night", he was still just as good or better as Datsyuk is on most nights. BTW...Datsyuk has just established himself as a top two-way forward in the NHL at 30. He entered the league at 23. Fedorov at 23 was an 86-point Selke finalist. Fedorov from 25-27 was the best forward in the world at both ends of the ice. Just because you don't realize or remember how good Fedorov was doesn't mean he wasn't that good.

Name me a linemate Fedorov ever had whose ability was greater than his own at the time they were linemates? Because Datsyuk has had Zetterberg. Without Z, Dats doesn't score as much. Datsyuk also did it on the first line; Fedorov hit the mid-80s in points on the second line and was top-four in Selke voting two consecutive years before winning it in 1994. It's not that I sold Datsyuk short; it's that people just don't remember HOW good Fedorov really was.

And I was criticizing the fact that people criticize Fedorov's work ethic because he wasn't always as playing as well as they had seen him play before. Just because a guy can be the best goal scorer, playmaker, and defensive player in the world on his best nights, and has many nights where he does it, does NOT mean that it is a lack of effort if he doesn't do it every night. This is what people seem to miss. Fedorov was so unbelievably good that when he was just 'very good' or 'one of the best players on the ice' people felt he was being lazy because it wasn't the incredibly dominant performances they had seen many times. Fedorov might be the only player in history who was criticized as 'not scoring enough because he's lazy and unmotivated' in seasons when he was actually scoring more than his typical output. The problem is everyone was expecting him to have a 120 point, Selke-winning season. He did that playing over 28 minutes per game and often double-shifting because of Yzerman's injury. The Wings were a much deeper, more balanced team later on and Feds was seeing less than 20 minutes of ice time. He's still expected to put up the same kind of numbers playing a third less time? He actually scored at about the same rate per minute in 2002-03 as he did in his Hart season. Most other years, which saw similar PT to 02-03, he wasn't too far behind that year's numbers offensively. Yet people felt because he wasn't scoring 120 points he wasn't trying. It's like if a guy hits 60 HR in 600 AB in his fourth season in the majors, then sees around 400 AB most of the rest of his career and is still expected to hit 60 HR, but instead usually hits around 35-40. Still the same kind of numbers as far as HR per AB...but not the same glory and public perception. So he just 'isn't trying anymore' or something like that.

Ok, so if he goes that hard all the time, then what? Does he get ripped for not stepping it up in the playoffs when other players' games are moving to a higher gear and his isn't? Name me one player, EVER, who played his best hockey every night in the regular season and didn't step it up even further in the playoffs or in big games, who didn't get criticized as a choker or at the very least labeled as 'not a clutch performer' Fedorov, even on 'off nights' was still one of the best players in the league. Pavel Datsyuk was widely criticized for not stepping his game up in the playoffs. He is considered an elite two-way forward and one of the best centers in the world. Guess what? Pavel's average regular season performance isn't as good as Sergei's 'off nights' that you refer to. Think about that. How good was Fedorov, if he was CRITICIZEDfor 'only' playing as well as Datsyuk plays right now? Datsyuk is commended for his hard work...Fedorov was called lazy simply because he had the ability to, in big games, push it to another gear that was just unreal.

I would argue Delvecchio was better. Abel's Hart season? He tied Ted Lindsay for the team lead in scoring at 54 points in 60 games. Lindsay missed ten games, Howe missed 20, scoring 37 in 40 games. Abel would have been third on the team in scoring had his linemates not been injured. Tying for the team lead is the only case where Abel ever led the team in scoring; he definitely should not have won the Hart is it's obvious Howe and Lindsay were far more important to that team. But neither of the two is among the two greatest centers to play for the club; it's arguable whether the names Delvecchio and Abel even belong in the top three among Detroit centers when you have to consider guys like Yzerman, Fedorov, and Ullman on the list.

I don't remember it ever being cool.

Emery got the job because he's Canadian and his teammate was from *shudder* EUROPE.

I'd believe it more if it were Frolov or Brown and not Kopitar. Gerber/Meszaros is not fair value for Kopitar...the others don't have his potential and are older, AND they are wingers, which Chicago is more in need of.

How do you seriously rank Ciccarelli above Sheppard? Ciccarelli and Sheppard played together in Detroit for Ciccarelli's entire tenure. Sheppard scored the equivalent of two 50-goal seasons and one 30-goal season during that period. Ciccarelli had one 40 goal season, and that was with Steve Yzerman feeding him in a year when Yzerman finished fourth in scoring. As far as a list, let's consider players who were with the team for multiple years during this period, and were considered top players at their position for multiple seasons during this period. That brings up: Forwards: Steve Yzerman, Sergei Fedorov, Brendan Shanahan, Vyacheslav Kozlov, Keith Primeau, Ray Sheppard, Henrik Zetterberg, Pavel Datsyuk Defensemen: Paul Coffey, Nicklas Lidstrom, Vladimir Konstantinov, Larry Murphy, Chris Chelios, Mathieu Schneider Goaltenders: Mike Vernon, Chris Osgood, Dominik Hasek Now let's think about that top ten. We'll assume it to be the 'top half' of an All-Star team; the top-six forwards, top-three defensemen, and top goaltender from the era, just to fairly distribute the positions. So we need to figure out who those are. At forward, we can cut off Primeau and Kozlov, because they were good players but they were always 'support' players and were never key cogs. Sheppard was the team's top goal scorer at one point. Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanahan, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk are all obviously included. On defense, Lidstrom is a lock. Murphy and Schneider are the first cuts as they were never finalists in Norris voting as a Wing, merely 'top ten' types. That leaves us deciding between Coffey, Konstantinov, and Chelios. Chelios is the only one of the three who I did not consider the best defenseman in the NHL as a Red Wing; however, this is due more to the dominance of teammate Lidstrom. I cut Coffey from the list. In goal, Osgood is the only one who is even close to consideration as far as jersey retirement. This alone is enough to push him beyond the other two in this discussion. My list goes as such. Vladdy would be higher if he had played a full career; likely the #2 spot. Yzerman Lidstrom Fedorov Konstantinov Osgood Shanahan Zetterberg Datsyuk Chelios Sheppard

Firstly, Emery is a lazy, pouty backup goaltender who wanted starter money and a starting job. Secondly, there are guys like Jarome Iginla, Mike Grier, Donald Brashear, and Georges Laraque who get paid well for their contribution and have not faced any sort of significant difficulty in getting a contract due to racism. Emery has the talent to have been snapped up by an NHL team this offseason if he was willing to accept fair value. But right now, he makes more in Russia than he would have in the NHL.

Ask Scott Hartnell. I will NEVER get tired of this fight. name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>&"> name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350" />

Samuelsson is a defensively responsible forward. Samuelsson is a big body who can hold his own physically. 5 goals in 22 games is a 19 goal season in 82 games. That's pretty darn good for a solid defensive forward like Sammy playing on the second line when you consider that people here consider a guy like Dan Cleary first-line caliber. Speaking of Cleary, how many goals did he put up in the playoffs?

It's Holmstrom and Kopecky, actually. Draper was listed twice in error, once (the tie with Hudler) was actually Drake.

Conklin is a good young goalie. He is, at this point, better than Howard. Some even considered him to have better career potential than Howard when he was Howard's age. Ultimately, Howard will be in Detroit if he can prove he brings more to the team than Conklin does. But because of the free agent situation with Conklin, the playing time situation with Howard (it would be as a backup either way) and the fact that the rest of the roster is pretty much set, I expect we will see Howard start the season in Grand Rapids unless there is an injury. There's no reason for Howard to rot on the bench when he has another year he can be playing 40-50 games in Grand rapids.

As an architect, you also can expect to be able to make that $200k for thirty, forty, fifty years with little or no chance of on-the-job physical harm while athletes at all levels face a high chance of significant physical harm every time they step onto the playing surface. Think Joe Theismann. And beyond that, there are probably less than 500 hockey players in the world making better than $1m annually. Compare that with other professional sports, or entertainment industries. An architect doesn't get paid as much at the top end for the same reason that a top-end chef or construction worker doesn't. These are jobs that require skill and training and involve physical risk, but per worker do not bring in nearly as much money as entertainment industries do. That sort of uneven relationship will of course filter back to the pay scales. Jobs that are in industries that have a higher 'revenue-per-worker' number will invariably see higher wages, especially among the top end.

The difference being that Toews doesn't ***** and whine after every play and to the media all the damn time like Crosby does. Sure, LGW probably overstates it to a degree, but Toews is far more captain-ready than Crosby was when given the C. Also, let's look at the list of veteran players who 'could' have been named captain on the roster of each team at the time of the decision: Pittsburgh had Mark Recchi, Gary Roberts, Sergei Gonchar, Darryl Sydor. All would have been fine choices. All had been wearing the A for at least part of their tenure in Pittsburgh, and two had been team captains on successful clubs in other cities. Chicago's roster includes the following veteran players under contract or RFA for next season who have played a game with the club: Robert Lang, Martin Havlat, Craig Adams, Brent Sopel. All four of those players' leadership abilities COMBINED don't add up to any of the single players listed above. Adams is a fourth-liner, Sopel is a depth defenseman. Havlat misses half the season, and he and Lang have motivation issues. Toews is already established as the on-ice leader of that club, and received the C BECAUSE of that. Crosby received the C because there were two sides; there was the established leadership of the club, and there was the best player. Crosby's C was a challenge to him to show that he was more than talent, not a recognition of that fact. This is why much of LGW criticized the move. Crosby getting the C wasn't necessarily a bad move; but it definitely wasn't as good a move as Toews is.

Ten of my favorites: Chris Osgood (Detroit) Gerry Cheevers (Boston) Ed Belfour (Chicago) Mike Vernon (Calgary) Mike Richter (New York Rangers) Clint Malarchuk (Buffalo) Ken Wregget (Pittsburgh) John Vanbiesbrouck (New York Rangers) Stephane Fiset (Los Angeles) Jim Carey (Washington)

The big difference? Shore apologized immediately after the game, and he was a major part of a benefit game organized in Bailey's honor; this is when the center ice handshake you refer to occurred. Bertuzzi has done nothing but deny wrongdoing and act as if he is the victim in the situation. Bertuzzi's actions have been disgusting. He has yet to acknowledge his plainly obvious intent to hurt Moore, and that his actions have ended Moore's potentially lucrative career. Think about Claude Lemieux. Would he have been such a villian if he had stopped and helped Draper up and apologized right on the spot.

Half right.

Pronger was Anaheim's third best defenseman last season. Admittedly, it could have been a down year for him. But Schneider was their best defenseman. Regardless, Pronger is not going to ever again be the defenseman he was in 2000, and he might not ever again be the defenseman he was in 2007. But he still has the trade value to get a guy like Ryan Whitney, who right now isn't much of a downgrade and could soon be better than the Pronger of 2006. He's also much younger and cheaper. It's like St. Louis trading Brendan Shanahan for Pronger. Yeah, he just completed two great years, and yeah, Pronger was just a kid who was unproven. But twose two seasons are STILL Shanahan's best years, and unlikely to ever be topped. Whitney has proven more than Pronger had at that point, is generally considered one of the future 'elite' defensemen, and Pronger is further away from his peak but as a former Hart winner has more trade value than Shanahan did. Burke probably won't trade Pronger. But this isn't because keeping Pronger is what's best for the team. It's because Burke doesn't realize that trading Pronger now for a young stud is the best move he can make to secure the future of his club; he's too concerned about his next job. Another reason he is not a truly elite GM; he has never put together a franchise and kept it a winner long-term like a Holland or Lamoirello, replacing key cogs not just with big stars or different stars, but with the RIGHT PLAYERS.

... I'm sorry, what was I saying?