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Brent Krahn or Alex Auld, but not both.

Umberger gives the fans a name to root for; he played his college hockey in Columbus for those of you who have forgotten. It's a decent move by the Jax...Philly gets a good pick in return for a guy they might not have been able to sign anyway, and CBJ gets a fan favorite who could become a strong core player for their team.

Mikael Samuelsson, Valtteri Filppula, or both. Neither has justified their presence on the second line over Hudler.

Until you can explain how Johan Hedberg is ranked ahead of Chris Osgood based on statistics, posting that site is completely without merit. Hedberg beat Osgood in no significant statistical categories. He didn't even play more. All he did was face more shots. That DOES NOT make him a better goaltender.

Ciccarelli does not beat Oates. Probably not Housley, either. People look at the fact that Dino was never really even close to being the best player at his position. All of the others were, at one point, considered the best or one of the best at their position. Dino never reached that top tier in his career.

I will admit I ranked him lower than he proved to deserve. HOWEVER, I had him at #22 on my list (obviously I only posted the top 20) while he was ranked at #36 by TSN, and you'll notice I was not called out for ranking Dats too low except by perhaps one or two members. Most of the board agreed that Dats was definitely outside the top 15-20 players. So in that regard, pretty much everyone on the board gets some crow. Kira might be the only member on LGW who would have ranked Dats in the top five or ten in the league going into the year.

Pronger had a horrendous season. His worst year since Hartford. He was nowhere near the top group of defensemen THIS SEASON. His name and what he has achieved over his career don't change that; otherwise Hasek would have been a Vezina finalist. But this season, Pronger wasn't even top two on his team.

I didn't expect Datsyuk to win it, and I was surprised he was nominated. this is more due to the fact that he carried a reputation as an average defensive player into the season, so some voters were likely to not vote for him. But my rating of him as not the best defensive forward? That comes from watching games. I see Datsyuk as one of the better defensive forwards in the league. But he has never once made me say 'wow, he's good defensively' the way Zetterberg does almost every game. No, I am not talking about the 5-on-3. I am talking about his defensive positioning and awareness; he is able to read the play and position himself to take away the passing lane before the puck is even to the passer. Datsyuk is much more reactive on defense; in this regard he follows the play rather than anticipating and preventing the way Z does. Watch how well Z performed defensively in the first period of Game 4 vs Dallas; there are some good examples of what I am talking about. takeaways is a good stat to lead...but it's not a definitive indicator of defensive play.

Based on your situation, a quarterback who takes a knee is playing defense. That's obviously not true; those kinds of plays fall into a grey area where it's not really either. Obviously, my definition refers to a VAST MAJORITY of situations and is not guaranteed to be exactly right every time. However, i was responding more to the comment about Dats always having the puck making him the best defensive forward; when Dats has the puck it is typically in an OFFENSIVE situation, as is it with any other player. But, I'll provide a less puck-centric definition: Defense is when the goal of your action is to prevent a scoring chance. Offense is when the goal of your action is to create a scoring chance. While technically Dats prevents the opponent from scoring while he has the puck, and he has the puck often,...so do Alex Ovechkin, Evgeni Malkin, and Joe Thornton. None of them is a Selke contender. I would say, and have said for years, that Z is better at preventing scoring chances than Dats. And btw...if Datsyuk is more physical...yet plays less than Z on the PK, doesn't that help my point that Z is the better defensive player? If Datsyuk and Z are about equal in speed, and Dats is more physical, then what makes Z the better PKer? The only other major factor left is defense.

You must have missed the point in my post when I stated I was saving $6m under next season's cap to allot for Malkin and Staal getting raises. Based on my numbers, the Pens next year would be around 50m. When I filled out the lines I only used existing names on the condition that all of those players could be retained within the salary constraints the Pens have for those positions. If the Pens cannot do so, as you seem to feel, they will replace them with players who can fit into those cost conditions. I personally don't see Gary Roberts demanding $1.5m when he was a healthy scratch to start the finals. The Pens will pay him less than $1m, or he will not be playing for them. Ray Shero knows he needs to focus on retaining as much of his skilled youth as possible, not overpaying fourth line veterans who are not key pieces. Roberts and Ruutu will be making less than $1m if they stay in Pittsburgh. Laraque probably goes elsewhere if he doesn't sign for less than 750k. Laraque and Ruutu were both overpaid and 30+ when they came to Pittsburgh. Neither are worth to the Penguins what you are suggesting they will be paid; both are replaceable by cheap young players who will do what they do just as well for the salary the Pens can affor to pay. As far as Orpik...he is not worth $3m. He might get it, but the guy is going to be a #3 defenseman and PK specialist for the majority of his career. Think about it...Orpik is probably the 4th best defenseman Pittsburgh had last season. Most people think Brad Stuart at $3m is iffy for a 4th defenseman. Well guess what; Brad Stuart would be, at worst the #3 defenseman on last year's Penguins. Possibly the #2. Orpik might get a little better, but he's the same age as Nik Kronwall and not nearly as good...and he's not as good as Kronwall was when he signed his deal. Based on the fact that most on here lambasted Ken Holland for signing that deal, and the fact that 'potential' has been given as a major reason why young players should get more than a comparably skilled veteran....I see no reason for Brooks Orpik, who is older but worse than Kronner was when Nik was 'overpaid' I see no reason for Orpik to make upwards of $2m. He'll probably get more from a team that thinks he can be a #1...but I don't think he's worth that much. Also...I never said the Pens would be as good as they were last year; it's fairly obvious that by losing a top-four defenseman and a top-six forward and replacing them with a 7th defenseman and a fourth line the Pens will be worse; but they will be sustainable using the requirements I laid out. At some point, I expect one of Malkin, Staal, or Crosby-likelihood in that order-to be either traded or converted full-time to the wing. Think of the 1995-96 Red Wings and Fedorov/Yzerman/Primeau. Primeau was the worst of the three defensively and on faceoffs, and didn't want to play wing. Had Keith been willing to play left wing, the Wings might never trade for Shanahan. If Malkin is willing to be converted to wing full-time, he might stay on, giving the Pens a top-four of Crosby, Malkin, Hossa, and Staal down the road on their two scoring lines. With the Pens apparently not giving much effort to retaining Malone, I can see this being a likely solution. However, I expect Staal to play third line most of next season, and here's why: He's in a contract year, and he was successful as the checking line center this past year. This allows the Penguins to justify keeping a more talented player in a role that reduces his scoring output without feeling the heat from the PA. Then they sign him to a more reasonable deal, and put him on the top two lines. EDIT: Orpik is a good #3 at best, meaning among all defenseman, he is in the top 90 but not the top 60. The 61st-paid defenseman last season made $2.6m, and the 90th paid defenseman made 1.824. If Orpik is on the high side of that, he makes between $2.2m and $2.6m. He's 27, so it's not like he is still oozing potential to skyrocket in his performance. The best you'll get is maybe a minor improvement over the next couple years. He's not going to pull a Kronwall and go from depth defenseman to star; Kronner did it at a younger age and is actually younger than Orpik.

Backup goaltenders absolutely get their names on the Cup. It's how you end up with Andre Racicot, a guy who never played a single playoff game in his CAREER, and never played more than 26 regular season games in a single season during a 5-year career that saw him make 68 appearances, with his name on the Cup.

I have been saying the Wings should look into signing Brent Krahn or Alex Auld, if it can be doen cheaply. The worst we could do is get someone to play tandem with Larsson in Grand Rapids or lose them on waivers when they are outplayed by Howard. The best we do is we get another young goaltender who was once considered a 'sure thing' and maybe he realizes some of that untapped potential a few years down the road. I'd rather have too many good young players than not enough. Krahn was supposed to be 'the next big star' when he was drafted out of juniors...and he has barely gotten a chance. Granted, the Flames have Kiprusoff...but Krahn showed a lot of promise and might still be able to deliver on it.

Plus/minus is probably the skater equivalent of GAA. It is certainly AFFECTED by the player's skill, but the players around him all factor into it a great deal as well. It is not a stat that is primarily determined by the player's ability with only minor influence from his surrounding cast, the way stats like goals, blocked shots, or save percentage are. Plus/minus is certainly unreliable as a defensive statistic...unless you think Pavel Bure (60 goals, 110 points, +35) was better defensively in 1993 than Doug Gilmour (32 goals, 127 points, +32) despite the fact that Bure has always been considered a liability, while Gilmour won the Selke that year.

Based on performance over this past season, I'd rank the top six Wings and Ducks defensemen in the following order: Lidstrom Rafalski Schneider Niedermayer Kronwall Pronger

The Penguins currently have under contract six forwards and six defensemen who dressed in the finals. The total cap hit for those 12 players is about $32m. Orpik is the only regular defenseman unsigned, and he is going to be SEVERELY overpaid this summer. Malone is a versatile depth forward but is not worth the $3-4 million he is going to likely get. If you budget $7.5m for Hossa, the Pens then have about $16m to sign at least 2 goalies, 1 defenseman, and 6 forwards. Fleury will likely see around $5m. Malkin and Staal will both be RFA after this season, so figure another $6m in raises is coming then. If you hold that space open, then the Penguins have $5m to fill out 1 G, 1 D, and 6 F. They can probably fill their fourth line, 13th forward, seventh D spot, and add Sabourin as backup (already under contract) for a total of $3.5m, leaving about $1.5m to sign two more forwards; that kind of money gets them nobody above the third line. Look for the Pens to try and shovel off Darryl Sydor's contract for a low-paid second or third line forward or a draft pick.They would also have to add one more depth d-man, for a salary close to $500k. That extra cap space allows them to retain Dupuis, who played well with Crosby and Hossa. Assuming they are able to retain primarily returning roster players, here is what the regular lines might look like: Dupuis/Crosby/Hossa Talbot/Malkin/Sykora Kennedy/Staal/Ruutu Roberts/Hall/Laraque Gonchar/Gill Letang/Whitney Scuderi/Goligoski This lineup might not be as formidable right now as the one seen in the finals...but it has the advantage of sustainability. and a lot of those guys; notably Staal, Whitney, Kennedy, and Malkin, have bright futures and are likely to perform considerably better in future playoff runs than they did this time around.

Ok...so he's got a career ahead of him that will see the high 400s in wins instead of the mid 500s? What is the big deal?

I stated that +/- showed the DZH line as the top two-way line in the league. The fact that it had two top-ten scorers who were also Selke finalists is another completely independent measure of this.

When you take as much flak for your opinions around here as I do...yes.

They didn't play every shift or game together; much of Dats and Z's plus-minus numbers were acquired during a stretch where Homer was out and Franzen was having a hot streak in his spot. For every even strength goal Franzen scored during his hot streak, it was a plus for Z and D that H didn't get. Oh...and name another regular forward line whose members add up to +80. The closest is Spezza's line, which is +74. That backs up my original point, yes?

Lest you forget...that was the one season Draper was used primarily in a scoring role; he was the second line right winger for a good chunk of the season. From 2001-2004, I would argue that 2004 was the season Draper LEAST deserved the Selke, as he was not used in a shutdown role that year; a role that fell to Maltby much more often. It's IMHO one of the major mistakes Lewis made while he was in charge; using Draper in a scoring role while he used Ray Whitney in a checking role. The Wings probably win even more that year if Whitney was used on the top two lines and Draper is used in a checking role. Am I really the only person who realized this stuff?

Defensive ability is the number one talent to be a good penalty killer...so PK time is one indicator of defensive ability. However, it can only be applied against teammates, and other factors must be taken into account. Speed is another major factor on the PK; it is the reason that Draper, Cleary, and Maltby were all top-four on the Wings in PK time among forwards. And finally, a good physical game is the third and least important major factor in PK. I wouldn't argue Maltby as significantly better defensively than Drake, Franzen, or Datsyuk...but he is a better penalty killer because he is still wicked fast and a good hitter. Drake, Franzen, and Dats cannot claim to be both fast AND among the team's best hitters. However, trying to use PK time to judge between teams gets dicey; as not all teams are equally talented defensively. Plus-minus is a fairly useless statistic; its value in determining defensive ability is limited to rating a complete line's two-way ability. It has very little individual value as a player can gain a plus or a minus without being involved in the play in any way, and it does not reflect every situation. It shows that the DZH line was the best two-way line in hockey, but that was a conclusion that you could reach without it. And anyone who claims Datsyuk is good defensively because he has the puck....you don't understand the difference between 'defense' and 'offense' in that defense only occurs when your team does not have the puck, and 'offense' only occurs when your team has the puck.

Just bumping this thread so everyone remembers how much Z-bashing was going on before the season now that he's gone and proven he is without a doubt top-five in the NHL.

Red Berenson has a well-paying coaching gig that he is consistently having tons of success at/. Why would he give that job up for less pay to be an assistant at the NHL level, when he already has won a Jack Adams trophy in his career? If Berenson wants to be an NHL coach, he will go directly for a head coaching position.

Datsyuk is a fine defensive player. My point is just that he's not the best defensive forward on his line. It's like being Nicklas Lidstrom's defense partner; you could be the second best defenseman in the NHL, but you are still the weak half of your pairing. Saying Datsyuk shouldn't have won the Selke because he's not the go-to defensive forward is NOT a slam on Datsyuk; rather, it's a statement that DESPITE all of his defensive or pseudo-defensive numbers, he was not considered the team's best defensive forward by his OWN COACH.

Smaller goalies don't need the extra length of padding to be safe. So at that point, we are talking about giving an unfair advantage to smaller goalies. A goaltender's pads are supposed to be there for safety; not additional blocking area. If a 6'2" goalie only needs 35" pads to be safe (and successful, for that matter), why should a guy who is 5'8" be wearing 38" pads? There's no reason other than 'more blocking area' or 'guy is a sissy' to logically answer that question. Goaltender pad length should be limited to an extent above the knee. Pad width should be limited to nine inches. Chest/arm protector should be more form fitting and based on the goaltender's size. Ultimately, the league istrying to promote skill and scoring. It does neither of those when less skilled goaltenders are allowed to gain an advantage by cheating around poorly written equipment rules. And honestly...what's wrong with a bunch of solid positional goaltenders dominating the league? If they're the best option for stopping the puck and winning games, they will play. That is true regardless of how big they are, or what the 'trend' is.