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The simulation also picked Sammy to be playing on the first line...so it's not perfect.

More importantly than the fact Samuelsson has scored the only two goals of the series so far: Samuelsson has scored the only two POINTS of the series so far. WHAT. THE. f***.

VM didn't quite hit it on the head. The owners get richer as a result of Bettman's tenure...however, what was left out: Bettman's job is to ensure as much financial security for the owners as possible. It's why he was hired; influenced largely by his significant role in establishing the NBA's salary cap. In that regard, Bettman has outperformed all league presidents to precede him COMBINED. He's by no means perfect, but he has executed very well the things he was brought in to do, and has been the direct cause of very little negative influence on the game. People like to blame him for everything that is wrong with the NHL, but ultimately, he doesn't have control over everything, and has done his job very well.

The Oilers of the 80s weren't able to keep the team together. They sold off Paul Coffey in 1987 and Wayne Gretzky in 1988. Mark Messier was shipped to New York in 1990. Glenn Anderson, Jari Kurri, Charlie Huddy, Steve Smith, Kevin Lowe, Jeff Beukeboom, Grant Fuhr and Esa Tikkanen would be traded or leave from 1990 to 1993. Most of those moves were made all or in part due to contract situations and the acquisition of cheaper and younger players or draft picks, as well as for cash.

Neal Broten is my favorite example of this kind of thing. He went to the finals as a rookie with Minnesota, lost in the conference finals to Edmonton a few years later, and had one more trip to the finals in 1991. In his first two finals appearances, his teams won a combined 3 games between the two seasons. In his third finals appearance, 1995 as a Devil, his team went 4-0, with him serving a key purpose providing veteran experience, two-way play, and key faceoff wins. I don't like the example of Hasek because he was a guy who basically was able to pick and choose his contender. Ray Bourque is a similar situation; he had a couple finals trips with Boston but ultimately had to request a trade to Colorado to get something done. Broten was basically shipped out of the Stars organization because they felt journeyman Corey Millen would help the team more. Broten would go on to score the 1995 Cup-winning goal after basically being cast aside by the organization he had been the face of for more than a decade. Imagine the Wings shipping Steve Yzerman out in 1996-97, only to see him score the Cup winner for some other team that same season? That's Neal Broten.

Just because I already had a well thought out post on this subject in another thread...

Chara is a Norris finalist and will likely be a First-team All-Star. Pronger might not even get Norris votes. Seriously...this year was probably Pronger's worst season since his first couple years in the league. I would say that this year, Pronger might not have been good enough to crack Detroit's top three.

Now we're speculating on the motivation behind Lemieux's comments. But ultimately, all I said was that "this is what Lemieux said" and "this is how he did in his final season" therefore "this is likely a more accurate interpretation of those comments." I was simply saying that from Dakine's point of view, if he doesn't feel someone who retired because of the refs deserves respect, that's his opinion. Based on Lemieux's own words, and how his play compared with that of others in his 'final' season, that's what he did.

It was the primary reason he cited in 1997, and it had more to do with the clutching and grabbing than him not dominating the league, as he obviously had less trouble scoring points than anyone else. I am not saying Dakine is right to not respect Lemieux, but he is right on that a major reason Lemieux retired in 1997 is the officiating.

Technically, DakineMaui is correct. Lemieux abruptly retired in the mid 90s because he didn't like the clutch and grab hockey. He said it was because he felt he couldn't play to 'his' standards. Which is a completely absurd statement; his nearest competitor for the Art Ross was 13 points behind. The last time he posted a gap larger than that? 1988-89, when he won the scoring title by 31 points. In 1992 and 1993 he won by 12 points, and in 1996 he won by 11 points. Combine that with the fact that of all of those seasons, Lemieux's 122 points in 1996-97 were his lowest total to lead the league, and you can see that the gap was greater than 10% of his point total for the first time since 1989. He quit because he didn't like the way games were being called. He is a great player, but he quit because he couldn't break 150 points due to clutch and grab hockey. He didn't quit because he couldn't play to his standards; unless his standards are number-based on him scoring at a certain level rather than based simply on being the top scorer. Doesn't make Dakine right to not respect Mario; that is a matter of opinion. but his assessment that Lemieux quit because he didn't like the officiating is spot on.

You are correct. it was late at night so I didn't realize that you had posted the stats in reverse order, and noticed that the first year listed Z had a higher number. I will admit that when I posted that, it didn't seem right but I was too tired to actually double check the numbers. That said...Z would have been a Selke finalist last year had he not missed 20 games. He was top five in Selke voting despite games missed; he'd have definitely been top three if he plays the full season. Regardless...Z has held a greater advantage defensively over Dats than Dats has held offensively. Combine that with the fact Z outperformed Dats offensively this season. I think Z is better. You think Dats is better. The difference is, I don't think it's as clear cut as you seem to believe it is; you are acting like it's Crosby vs Hudler. This is two similar players, one of whom is slightly better than the other. You are acting like anyone who would pick Z over Dats is a complete moron. That alone makes you wrong.

Sammy's offensive numbers, in terms of points per game, make him a top six forward in the NHL. I wouldn't call him one of Detroit's six best, but he is a much better player than you seem to feel. You need to learn to deal with the fact that to be a top-six forward, you don't have to be a 25+ goal, 70+ point player who is not a liability defensively. That's what we call a FIRST LINER, which Sammy is not. Sammy is defensively responsible, and pitches in a decent amount of offense. He probably shoots all the damn time for the same reason he's on the PP point to begin with; Babcock likes his shot, and wants him to use it. Sammy has always seemed like a very coachable player, and if the coaches felt he should stop shooting and asked him to, he would. He's a mediocre second liner. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Ok, I'll get into this comparison game. Except rather than 1st line vs 1st line, 2nd vs 2nd, etc, I'm going to play it a different way. I'm going to compare the likely matchups for the start of the series based on recently used lines. I'm going to lump the defensemen most likely to play with each line the most into the comparison. Detroit's 1st line vs Pittsburgh's 1st line Pavel Datsyuk/Henrik Zetterberg/Tomas Holmstrom/Nicklas Lidstrom/Brian Rafalski vs Pascal Dupuis/Sidney Crosby/Marian Hossa/Sergei Gonchar/Brooks Orpik Detroit's top forward line has scored 28 even-strength points in 16 games to Pittsburgh's 26 in 14. Detroit's top line also has two Selke nominees, to Pittsburgh's zero. Detroit also has the two best defensemen at either end of the ice in this comparison. Don't expect to see this matchup as much in Games 3 and 4. Advantage: Detroit Detroit's 2nd line vs Pittsburgh's 3rd line Jiri Hudler/Valtteri Filppula/Dan Cleary/Brett Lebda/Chris Chelios vs Tyler Kennedy/Jordan Staal/Jarkko Ruutu/Hal Gill/Rob Scuderi Detroit's second line features plenty of skill. Unfortunately, two thirds of this line has been underachieving in the offensive department for this run. Defensively sound, they should be able to handle the offensive contributions put forth by Pittsburgh's bunch, but unless one of Filppula or Cleary shows up, it will be fairly easy for the Staal line to contain Hudler if he's forced to do it alone. I expect the Lebda/Chelios pairing to be used here because Babcock will want to match Kronner with Malkin. I see Lebda playing because of his speed and the fact his pairing is likely to be used in an offensive situation. Advantage: Pittsburgh Detroit's 3rd line vs Pittsburgh's 2nd line Dallas Drake/Kris Draper/Mikael Samuelsson/Niklas Kronwall/Brad Stuart vs Petr Sykora/Evgeni Malkin/Ryan Malone/Ryan Whitney/Kris Letang This is probably a key matchup in the series. Draper and Drake are the two best faceoff guys in the matchup that will actually end up in the circle; Malkin might be the worst. Detroit will try to exploit the difference between Draper and Malkin at the dot to control the puck as much as possible to neutralize Pittsburgh's potent second line. It should be an effective strategy; combine that with the fact that all three of DDS are defensively sound players who skate well and have decent puck skills, and I expect this to be a key matchup in the series. Kronwall's excellent performance at both ends and physically thus far is what will ultimately lead to Malkin being generally contained, and Stuart's solid defense is a bonus. Advantage: Detroit Detroit's 4th line vs Pittsburgh's 4th line Kirk Maltby/Darren Helm/Darren McCarty vs Georges Laraque/Max Talbot/Adam Hall I don't expect to actually see this matchup; Detroit's fourth line is typically used to spell the first three more than it is used to match up against a specific line; Pittsburgh's is only the 4th line because they are the remaining three forwards and typically will be used as fill-ins on the first three lines; common is Talbot filling in on line 1 for Dupuis or line 3 for Ruutu. Both units have a generally useless veteran who is only around in case of what MIGHT happen, as well as a speedy winger who is primarily a defensive player who plays gritty and physical. Both units also have a young two-way center capable of offensive production if given the opportunity, but solid at the dot and in his own zone. Advantage: Even...like it even matters. Goaltending Chris Osgood vs Marc-Andre Fleury Osgood and Fleury have similar numbers. Both have stolen games in this playoff run. Both have been doubted, and have silenced many critics. The Wings have a better team and win most of the matchups; importantly they win the matchups concerning Pittsburgh's top two lines. Osgood will have far less work to do than Fleury will; Fleury isn't so great, nor Osgood so terrible, that the Pens should end up on top in any of the games at the Joe. Advantage: Detroit Now, for comparisons when the Pens have last change: When the series shifts to Pittsburgh, I expect Lidstrom's unit to be split from DZH and put with Hudler/Flip/Cleary. Kronwall/Stuart will move to DZH, and Lebda/Chelios will play with Draper's line. Other than that, no significant changes are prognosticated. Pittsburgh will likely Det 1 vs Pit 3 This is a more favorable matchup for the Pens than either of the first two lines; Detroit's top two defensive forwards are rendered near useless in terms of their impact on Crosby and Malkin. However, as the Detroit unit still features much more potent offense than Staal's line would have seen yet in the postseason, it's not a total loss. Advantage: Detroit Det 2 vs Pit 1 Pittsburgh has to settle for Crosby/Hossa vs Lidstrom, hoping to capitalize on the weakest Wings forward line defensively. However, playing with Lidstrom and Rafalski against a line that is not as good as Staal's defensively will play into Detroit's 2nd unit's hands enough for some impact. Not enough though, as Pittsburgh has the top two forwards in this matchup. Advantage: Pittsburgh Det 3 vs Pit 2 Malkin gets away from Kronwall/Stuart, instead facing Lebda/Chelios. This seems to be an upgrade for the pens, except Malkin still will be denied the puck by Draper's faceoff skills so he won't get many chances to take advantage of the defensive change. Expect Chelios to hound Malkin and try to get him irritated and off his game. Advantage: Detroit Det 4 vs Pit 4 Here for completeness. Advantage: Detroit Detroit still comes out ahead; Although with last change I expect Pittsburgh to shuffle around a bit, and if possible, we'll see Malkin/Crosby/Hossa or something similar thrown out as much as possible if they can find time when none of D, Z, or Lids is on the ice. Pittsburgh's a good team, but the Wings match up very well against them so I expect this series to be more one-sided than many are expecting. Pittsburgh wins one game just on raw offensive talent, but they don't have enough depth going both ways to beat Detroit. I can see this series ending in four games, but I will give the Pens the benefit of the doubt and call it... Wings in 5.

No; Z gets credit for how well he has played in his time healthy. I simply stated that two of the past three seasons Z has beaten Dats in points per game, and in the other one he went down with an injury in the middle of a RIDICULOUS scoring streak. Had Z been luckier in terms of health, he'd be the one who had led the team in scoring three seasons in a row. It's very close in the regard of actual point totals, and the minor difference in games played is what, more than anything, determined who end up on top at season's end. Ultimately, I feel Zetterberg is, and has been, the better defensive player. But here's what I don't get; Datsyuk having better scoring numbers over the past couple seasons is what has been argued as why he's better offensively. Zetterberg has been an elite defensive forward for three years; Datsyuk has not. So the argument that Dats and Z are close defensively is based entirely on this season, when Z clearly outperformed Dats offensively. Which is it? Three-year span or a single season performace that matters? I was accused of picking and choosing my arguments because of stats...when that's actually what GST just did.

Shanahan was acquired with D Brian Glynn for C Keith Primeau and D Paul Coffey. Wings also lost Grimson to the Whalers because they had to waive somebody to activate, and thus trade, Primeau. Sheppard was not drafted by the Wings; he was acquired for cheap from the Rangers, and was traded to San Jose in 1996 for Igor Larionov. Yzerman went 4th overall. Konstantinov, Fedorov, and Lidstrom were drafted before the influx of Europeans, and nobody was sure if they would ever play a game in the NHL. It's not just about having a high payroll; it's about signing the right players. Dallas Drake is a perfect example. St. Louis bought him out, captaincy and all, before this season. They felt he had nothing left to provide. Kenny Holland picked him up as an experienced PK specialist who brought leadership and a physical edge; which is all he would have been used for in St. Louis, and Drake was just named first star in the clinching game of the WCF. The Red Wings have consistently picked up players via small trades or FA signings of all ages that few, if any, teams were interested in (Brett Hull, Luc Robitaille, Jason Williams, Manny Legace, Kris Draper, Kirk Maltby, Joe Kocur in 1996-97, and many more.) The Rangers, OTOH, have been and still are notorious for throwing large contracts at past-their-prime stars or acquiring highly paid stars, or players coming off one really strong season. Shanahan, Jagr, Straka are examples of the first group; Drury, Gomez, and more are examples of the second. Picking up the top guy at his position on the market is not a great move if you pay more than he's worth, and proceed to pick up a guy who doesn't fit your system or have chemistry with your other players. Detroit has made one big offseason move since the lockout; acquiring Brian Rafalski. He replaces Mathieu Schneider, and is a much better fit for our system than Schneider was, at an equal cost to what Schneider would have cost. Detroit tried to sign brad Stuart in the summer, but ended up with him at the deadline instead. See how that works? Identify players that would work in your system, and go after them, rather than identifying the player who has performed the best in his CURRENT system, and try to make him work in a new one. It's the same reason Detroit has been able to draft well so low; they draft players based on things like puck skills and ice vision, the most important skills in Detroit's system. Other teams draft based on other criteria, often putting too much emphasis on size. It's why Scotty Bowman, for all his successes, failed miserably when drafting for the Wings. Seriously; the best player Bowman drafted was Tomas Holmstrom, and after him you have Mathieu Dandenault and Yan Golubovsky. Holland has drafted much better than Bowman, and there is a reason for that. Holland himself was a top scout within the Wings organization, he scouted guys that helped us win Cups, some guys who are still helping us to win Cups, and he knows the scouting team we have because he worked with all of them. He knows when to trust which scout on what types of players; because everyone has tendencies towards certain things when they evaluate players. The long-term front-office team has been a huge reason for the Wings' consistent success. Because they can consistently find the right players to fit in their system, rather than just trying to add top end talent. This isn't the NBA, and the Rangers need to learn that having a few elite players and some scrubs doesn't work in the NHL unless everyone plays well together. In the NBA, you can see one great player will his team deep into the postseason irrespective of his team's performance. This CANNOT happen in the NHL.

You conspicuousky left out games played. Datsyuk scored 5 points more than Z this year in seven more games. In other words, had Z not missed time injured, he would have led the team in scoring. The way he was going to close out last season, he would have led the team in scoring last year as well had he not been injured. As far as defense, that's more from watching Z and Dats play. Dats is big with the offensive zone takeaways, as others have noted. Z's defense is more related to always being in the right position. Watch him on the penalty kill sometime....he reads the play and cuts off the attacking forward's passing lane before the puck even reaches the forward in question. It's uncanny. Datsyuk is more of a reactive defense. Both are excellent; I just think Z is better. And for the record, my point of view in the Selke thread was more along the lines of 'Datsyuk does not deserve to win' and that 'he will probably not be nominated.' This is not the same as saying he does not deserve nomination. Simply that he is not the BEST defensive forward, and I didn't expect him to get nominated for the award. And as I said...it's not like Zetterberg is Yzerman and Datsyuk is Stacy Roest. It is more along the lines of Yzerman vs Fedorov in the mid 90s. On any given night, one could be the better player. Both were top notch players at both ends of the ice. Both were very good on faceoffs. Some arguments simply came down to preference; who you thought was better, more consistent, more important to the team...whatever tiebreaker a person picked. As I said earlier...both of them are in that 2-6 group where any of them can be #2 or #6 at any given point.

You do know that Detroit scored almost as many shorthanded goals against Dallas as they gave up PP goals? And this is a team that has seen Detroit's unique PK style many times. Pittsburgh...well...hasn't. I wouldn't be stunned if Detroit scores several shorties against the pens. Whitney will probably never win a Norris. He's good...but Phaneuf, Kronwall, Jack Johnson, Erik Johnson, Jay Bouwmeester? All of thos guys are just as good or better. Whitney might at his peak be a finalist, but he probably will not ever actually win a Norris. Hossa is one of the better all-around players in the league. But that said, he wouldn't even be in the Wings' top six defensive forwards. The only guys he is clearly better than defensively on the Wings' regular roster are Holmstrom, Hudler, and McCarty. And Hossa is among the best, if not the best defensive forward Pittsburgh has. Good thing Drake and Chelios are depth players and don't have to be on the ice much, so if they're tired, they can be rested. Fleury is the better goalie based on hype. Osgood is the better goalie based on experience and performance. Oh, and Osgood has stolen a few games in this playoff run. Because we all know that Pittsburgh tends to shoot more than Detroit does, or that Pittsburgh has a guy who has been a Vezina finalist and Stanley Cup champion in net, who is considered universally to be playing the best hockey of his career? Conklin is more likely to play than Hasek is, unless Osgood gets injured.

I don't see why; Z is the better player at both ends of the rink. Not by much, and not every night...but overall yes.

Who's been consistently better than Zubov? Lidstrom? Niedermayer? Pronger? That's pretty much the list of guys who have consistently been better than Zubov is yearly. And two of those guys weren't better than him this year.

I would put it this way. 1) Osgood 2) Zetterberg 3) Lidstrom 4) Datsyuk 5) Franzen Franzen was much higher before we beat Dallas without him; and admittedly, although he has 12 goals, many of those goals had no bearing on the outcome of the game they were scored in. In game 2 vs Colorado, he scored his third goal halfway through the third period to put Detroit up 5-1, which was the final. In game 4, he scored the Wings' 6th and 7th goals in the second half of the second period. Yes, he has scored some big goals...but if you don't think his stats are a little inflated by being the finisher on a couple meaningless plays, you should never talk about whether goals are 'good' or 'bad' goals because clearly you put more stock in the actual numbers than the quality.

She meant the Wings have ended every series at the OTHER team's home. If you look at her prediction, you'll see that's what happens. And, as I have nothing to lose by making this prediction since I am sooo far down... DET/PIT: 4-0

I think the point is that Philadelphia has a long drought since winning ANYTHING despite having several teams. Detroit has won seven championships since Philly last won one. New York has won like 15. Chicago has won 8 or 9. Los Angeles has won several. Even Boston has won a couple. Miami, Oakland, San Francisco, St. Louis, Minneapolis, Baltimore, Pittsburgh all have won a few since then. Philadelphia has one of, if not the longest drought, in ALL FOUR major sports. Most major cities have at least one team that has won something since the last time a team in Philly did.

The Wings have three of the world's six best players; Lidstrom, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk. The other three spots go to Ovechkin, Crosby, and Malkin. I would probably rank them in this order: 1) Lidstrom 2) Ovechkin 3) Zetterberg 4) Crosby 5) Datsyuk 6) Malkin The members will remain the same, and Lidstrom is likely to remain in first, but if you ask me on a different day I will likely put 2-6 in a different order completely. It's really that close between those five guys. All of them could be #2 or #6.

Lucky goalie: faces nine fewer shots than his opponent in the third, and his team is only on the penalty kill twice as opposed to nine power plays. Guess which goalie that is.

Zubov is not Lidstrom defensively; but he IS very good in his own end.